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arnljot
8th April 2009, 22:06
Question.

Can I replace the 25mhz 040 with a 40mhz one and a 80mhz crystal?

rkauer
8th April 2009, 22:46
Yes, but you need to modify the board a little.

http://www.rabayjr.com/Amiga/A3640_Delay%20line%2066.666MHZ_r350.jpg

arnljot
9th April 2009, 00:03
If I supply the parts:
-25mhzA3640
-80mhz crystal
-40mhz 040
-stump of wire

Can Some one fix this for me then? Pretty please?

rkauer
9th April 2009, 00:31
Just remember: if your board is the crappy 3.0 version, forget about it!

The only upgrade you can do on the 3.0 board is replace the EC/LC CPU for a full 040.

BTW: you cannot overclock a 25MHz unit to 40MHz! You'll end with a very broken CPU. 25MHz can be overclocked to 28MHz, tops. 33MHz units can go to 36~38MHz and 40MHz units can go up to 44~48MHz.

arnljot
9th April 2009, 00:39
I have no idea what version it is. It has no sticker on U209.

It just reads:
TI
22V10-10CFN
40307XWAF

Is there any software way to tell?

arnljot
9th April 2009, 00:47
Comparing pictures at amiga.resource.cx and bboah.com, it seems that I have a V3.1, heatsink and other stickers match up with the 3.1 version, the 3.0 and 3.2 version stickers differs. If it's anything to go by...

rkauer
9th April 2009, 00:51
BTW, here is another useful link (http://members.iinet.net.au/~davem2/overclock/a3640.html) with a bit more information (and a crappiest photo). :wink:

If you find a MC68040 (not the fry-an-egg XC68040), you can overclock even the 25MHz over 40MHz without issues (on 3.1 and 3.2 boards).

Your board don't have any sticker? All chips have the -01 sticker (but the CPU), only U204 have the -02/-03 sticker. Also there is the version printed on the board, near the socket.

arnljot
9th April 2009, 00:58
BTW: you cannot overclock a 25MHz unit to 40MHz! You'll end with a very broken CPU. 25MHz can be overclocked to 28MHz, tops. 33MHz units can go to 36~38MHz and 40MHz units can go up to 44~48MHz.

I was planning to buy a 40mhz 040 (XC68040RC40M). And then put a 80mhz crystal on the board in place of the 50mhz crystal that's there.

But the only text I've found so far which suggests that it can be done is here: "Overclocking the Commodore A3640" (http://members.iinet.net.au/~davem2/overclock/a3640.html)



I have overclocked three of these boards, by replacing the 50MHz oscillator by one rated at 60MHz. This gives 30MHz for the 68040. All systems work reliably at this speed, and it's an ideal way to get some extra performance out of this board. I have heard of other people getting more. One user has been able to clock this board as high as 40MHz, and another I have heard of, has managed to get 37MHz. These two users were not able to get a lower speed of 33MHz, possibly because of the design of the A3640, which uses delay lines for part of it's clock circuitry. These delay lines provide a fixed amount of delay which becomes inappropriate when the clock frequency is changed too much. I suspect a "wrap around" effect occurs when the frequency is increased still further, the amount of delay once again becoming more or less correct over 37MHz or so. Recently I have become aware that it is possible to change the amount of delay from this delay line, so that it is now possible to overclock to frequencies such as 33MHz, and possibly more.


So, I realise it's pretty thin... So, does any one know - can it be done?

Edit: You beat me to it with the link... :-D

arnljot
9th April 2009, 01:04
If you find a MC68040 (not the fry-an-egg XC68040), you can overclock even the 25MHz over 40MHz without issues (on 3.1 and 3.2 boards).

Ah, crap. I've only found an XC - I'll continue to scout for an MC then.


Your board don't have any sticker?
U401, U208, U207, U213, U203 and U400 have stickers. They all say "*-01" and stuff like "exlat", "term" "mapper", "rst", "lebus" and "oebus".


Also there is the version printed on the board, near the socket.

Aha! I do have a 3.1 board :)

rkauer
9th April 2009, 07:38
A german guy on the other bay was selling those lovely chips a little time back...

Worth a look, don't you think? :wink:

Zetr0
9th April 2009, 12:17
@arnljot

get yourself an MC68040 full core @ 40mhz m8, much cooler!!! (XC's are toasty chippies)

once you have all your kit PM me, I am sure I can help. I have a 33mhz 040 version of the A3640 that I will do this mod too as well me thinks :D

TheCorfiot
9th April 2009, 13:38
@arnljot

get yourself an MC68040 full core @ 40mhz m8, much cooler!!! (XC's are toasty chippies)

once you have all your kit PM me, I am sure I can help. I have a 33mhz 040 version of the A3640 that I will do this mod too as well me thinks :D


TC's ears perk up :lol:

arnljot
9th April 2009, 14:12
Thanks Zetr0.

I'll come back to you when I have all my ducks in a row.

rkauer
9th April 2009, 16:04
This time I only found a pair of used equipment with those chips inside, don't know if socketed... :|

arnljot
9th April 2009, 16:29
Yeah, I googled and "040 68040 +otherbay", and checked .hk, .ca, .com, .de, .ca, .co.uk, .sg and .my Nada. Just those embeded ones. And two were sufrace mount types. And one PGA at 33mhz. Going from 33 to 40, isn't maybe much. But I'd rather be "purist" on a hack like this.

rkauer
9th April 2009, 17:34
If you find a MC type unit run for it.

Doesn't matter if the mask says 33MHz!

It will be good to use at 40MHz and even more! :D

Kin Hell
15th April 2009, 21:27
From my experiences.........

Not sure the A3640 is actually capable of a 40Mhz CPU anyway, even if you fit a 40Mhz CPU part....

The reason being, the mod shown here by rkauer is NOT needed for swapping a Crystal & O/C-ing the CPU. How fast you can go depends on the "Quality" of your CPU,

My Rev 3.1 040 clocked to 33Mhz without wires traced all over the place.....

I guess plugging in a 40Mhz CPU & a 80Mhz X-Tal is the only thing to do for being sure!

XC or MC doesn't matter imo. The 040 even @ 25Mhz is better suited with a Fan/Heatsink combo in an A4KD anytime. In an A4KT, you might get away with Passive 40Mhz CPU, but this depends on Air flow through the case & I suspect a bog standard A4KT is not going to cut the cloth. :wink:

Kin

arnljot
15th April 2009, 21:35
I guess plugging in a 40Mhz CPU & a 80Mhz X-Tal is the only thing to do for being sure!

This is the way I plan to go. And now, by your reccomendation seeing as this is planned to go into a desktop model, also with a fan and heatsink too now.

Kin Hell
15th April 2009, 21:44
So you don't fancy my XC68040 40Mhz I have here then?

Kin

arnljot
15th April 2009, 21:47
Oh yes!

:-)

I'll place a wanted asap.

Kin Hell
15th April 2009, 22:03
Mate, ....you only have to PM me! :wink:

Kin

arnljot
15th April 2009, 22:07
Too late :)

I'm grease lightning. :lol:

Btw, do you also have a 80mhz cryztal.

Kin Hell
15th April 2009, 22:10
Yes, but only in the Smaller can type like your modified CSPPC card!

/....Kin legs it to the wanted section....

arnljot
15th April 2009, 22:14
Aha, it's not the kind that is used in the A3640. Too bad.

Kin Hell
15th April 2009, 22:18
No "Too Bad" about it m8........

Doesnt matter a toss!. Just get the same 4 pins down to the same 4 pins on the board & you are good to go! - Trust me!! :mrgreen:

Kin

arnljot
15th April 2009, 22:29
Zetr0, this all ends up in your hands, wadaya think?

Kin Hell
15th April 2009, 23:05
Zetr0 is a legend in his own house RE H/W mods! - I aint so sure the card is good for 40Mhz period & a "try it & see it" thing is probably the best way to go.

I don't have a problem sending the Stuff to Zetr0, just so long as you understand it might not work, so maybe best to hold on any payments other than postage charges b4 we go tits up on this!?

What do you think Keith?

Charlie

arnljot
15th April 2009, 23:30
Excellent offer Kin Hell. If Zetr0 agrees I'll be happy as a clam.

I'll get a dil socket too for the mod? Also, if it was possible, I'd add some beers in the shipment to be had after the mod was done :)

arnljot
16th April 2009, 00:02
is this (http://www1.elfa.se/elfa~no_no/go.jsp?s=no-no&a=48C9A407410E453BE10000000A0A036A) what I need to buy? How many pins?

Kin Hell
16th April 2009, 00:51
is this (http://www1.elfa.se/elfa~no_no/go.jsp?s=no-no&a=48C9A407410E453BE10000000A0A036A) what I need to buy? How many pins?

No m8. You need this 14 Pin (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=597) socket:

Google my "14-pin DIL socket" text for an eGay result @ Ģ.xxp! :wink:

The sockets thereby this search means you retain the Pin pitches for your A3640 Card 1, 2 & 13 & 14 & press out the other pins bar 7 & 8 which should be snipped, as I kind of mention on my overclocking CSPPC thread. When you plug in the smaller Can X-Tal I have here as per your modded CSPPC card, just hot wire the snipped pins to the card (7 & 8 to 13 & 14 ) accordingly. It's the 5V package that is of all concern & pin orientation can be bent/twisted/conformed to what ever configuration you like, but please ensure physical orientation to the original socket is maintained what ever degree of twisting you apply!! :D

The other way around, I had a 14Pin X-Tal fitted to a 233Mhz CSPPC card I once owned. You know already these cards use an 8 pin socket. You ahve my Modded one to prove it! :mrgreen:

It'd be a whole pile easier to attain any socket & push out the pins as per my OC thread here on AmiBay! These pushed out pins can be soldered directly to the A3640 & don't believe the hype about such practises being worse than than a direct Solder. I sent you a Socketed/Over Clocked aka reversable 060 over-clocked CSPPC & I bet my bottom dollar, every time you switch X-Tals, ....it works first time! :wink:

Same goes for any card modded as I describe using an "Un-Soldered" X-tal in the first instance!

Stike me down if you aint already using 66Mhz as ur default speed! :P

Kin

arnljot
16th April 2009, 01:14
Item 48-159-24 is just that, a 14 pin DIL socket. The picture is for a 24 pin socket. Only these are low profile. Do I need normal height ones - is it so that low profile sockets are not useable?

Item 48-130-69 on that site is an other alternative. Also 48-135-64 is a cheaper alternative, not low profile and in black plastic closer in resemblance to whatīs on AmigaKit.

48-161-20 is the cheapest. But sell in 34 per pack. And is the kind that ICs goes into (two side contact in the socket). Same kind that ROMs go into, again 14 pin type.

When shipping is counted ordering from elfa is the fastest and simplest for me. Unless one of you have the component needed?

rkauer
16th April 2009, 07:05
From my experiences.........

Not sure the A3640 is actually capable of a 40Mhz CPU anyway, even if you fit a 40Mhz CPU part....

The reason being, the mod shown here by rkauer is NOT needed for swapping a Crystal & O/C-ing the CPU. How fast you can go depends on the "Quality" of your CPU,<SNIP>

The reason for the delay line hack is when the board is running over 33MHz, what the original 3640 don't expect...

The hack is well known and absolutely recommended.

da9000
16th April 2009, 08:09
Sorry guys, but I totally agree with Kinny here: the CPU part will NOT make the difference. It's the fact that you're overclocking your motherboard that causes SUCK (aka. FAIL) to happen. And the chips on the A3640. You're driving the motherboard because you've set the EXT jumpers when using the A3640. Now, having said that, I know of one other guy (other than the .au link someone posted) that claims A3640@40Mhz working. I have tried 2 and neither go to 40Mhz (again, not the CPU, but the components on the mobo and the A3640 itself). So, if you do do it, make sure you cool the A3640 chips and the main mobo chips (let it run, once it's been up for a while, feel them and see which one is hot and put some paste and a heatsink on them).

One other big hint (thanks Jens Schoenfeld): the delay line chip is suspect to temporal and temperature related fatigue. After years it will not work as well which will eventually cause total malfunctioning of the board.

More info here (search for me posts):
http://www.amiga.org/modules/newbb/view ... 1222975265 (http://www.amiga.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=DESC&topic_id=47303&forum=8&move=prev&topic_time=1222975265)

@arnljot: I can almost guarantee 35-36Mhz will work, so let me know if you want a crystal that's in the ~70Mhz range.



From my experiences.........

Not sure the A3640 is actually capable of a 40Mhz CPU anyway, even if you fit a 40Mhz CPU part....

The reason being, the mod shown here by rkauer is NOT needed for swapping a Crystal & O/C-ing the CPU. How fast you can go depends on the "Quality" of your CPU,

My Rev 3.1 040 clocked to 33Mhz without wires traced all over the place.....

I guess plugging in a 40Mhz CPU & a 80Mhz X-Tal is the only thing to do for being sure!

XC or MC doesn't matter imo. The 040 even @ 25Mhz is better suited with a Fan/Heatsink combo in an A4KD anytime. In an A4KT, you might get away with Passive 40Mhz CPU, but this depends on Air flow through the case & I suspect a bog standard A4KT is not going to cut the cloth. :wink:

Kin

arnljot
16th April 2009, 10:02
I feel my boing balls shrinking now :-)

Reading from a.org I see that this will also affect the heat generated by my motherboard...

Will 33 to 35 also be a tough strain on the mobo, or will it be safer?

If so I think 35mhz on the 40mhz chip of Kinnie is the way to go? Then I need a 70mhz crystal.

Kin Hell
16th April 2009, 10:57
33Mhz is dead easy & should be doable with most Full 040's. I have a used 66Mhz X-Tal here that was actually on my old A3640 back in the early 90's. Legs are a bit beat up now but she should be good for another solder sesh!

Still wouldn't hurt to fit a 40Mhz part & run it slower. Should be a littel cooler for it, heatsink or not! :wink:

@ da9000

Thanks for hearing me & confirming some of the stuff I read back in those pioneering days....

Kin

arnljot
16th April 2009, 11:33
What about 35mhz, just as easy or are we getting close to edge values then?

Kin Hell
16th April 2009, 11:40
Probably edge values of the card architecture itself & possibly beyond most Stock 25Mhz 040's. One of those things you have to "suck to try" & whilst sucking to try, it could all melt down & pack in all together!? - One of the joy's of overclocking! :| :mrgreen:

Kin

arnljot
16th April 2009, 11:58
Please keep in mind that I have no intention of having the 25mhz cpu overclocked. We are now talking about underclocking your 40mhz cpu.

What I'm wondering is the card it self (A3640) and it's effect on the motherboard. Will 35mhz be just as okay as 33mhz, or are those 2 extra mhz moving it too close to the edge?

Kin Hell
16th April 2009, 13:53
It's like this Arnljot....

Over-clocking any device is going to have consequences & the further you try to push things, the more consequential it is likely to go. For another 2Mhz, is it worth risking a burn-out?

I have a dead CSMKIII for a similar event if you want to try & convince yourself different! :wink:

Also, The Mobo will be fine because the timing is sent to the card & as da9000 already concurs, the architecture of the A3640 is very dodgy at these kind of speeds.

Running an 040 @ 33Mhz should yeild around 23.5 MIPS whereas a stock 25Mhz part would return approx 19 MIPS. It's almost like bolting an Extra 030 @ 25Mhz onto your 040! :D

Kin

arnljot
16th April 2009, 14:29
Okay, I think I'm catching up now. Put me down if I'm not :-D


When increasing the frequency of a Commodore A3640 it's preferable to underclock a higher rated CPU than overclocking a cpu(running a 040@40 @33mhz is preferable to running a 040@25 @33mhz both in terms of heat and performance). I get the heat bit, but not the performance bit.[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]
Say what ever you want about Commodore engineers but the A3640 is a piece of **** engineering?[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]
The card is the bottle neck when frequency is increased. If it runs at 40mhz, the motherboard will generate extra heat too (SuperBuster, Ramsey, Alice, etc. jfr da9000@a.org)[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]
If the card runs at 40mhz it will die faster (caps or other)[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]

:-) Now, my boing balls are in line. I agree, lets do the 33mhz frequency.


Zetr0 will say "yea or nay"[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]
Arnljot Will send postage to Kin Hell[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]
Kin Hell will send Xtal(66mhz) and 040@40 mhz with fan and sink to Zetr0[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]
Arnljot will send A3640 and DIL14 socket to Zetr0[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]
Zetr0 will put it together[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]
Arnljot owes Zetr0 bigtime, and sends postage money to him[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]
Arnljot receives 33mhz A3640 card[/*:m:2nmlvd5s]

Now, if I only could get Zetr0 to also look at those Caps... :?

Kin Hell
16th April 2009, 15:00
Okay, I think I'm catching up now. Put me down if I'm not :-D


When increasing the frequency of a Commodore A3640 it's preferable to underclock a higher rated CPU than overclocking a cpu(running a 040@40 @33mhz is preferable to running a 040@25 @33mhz both in terms of heat and performance). I get the heat bit, but not the performance bit.
MIPS = Million Instructions Per Second. Only underclock in this instance cos it's cheap enough to do so. Thermal Heat dissipation will be down to the Revision of CPU used.[/*:m:14hv18pc]
Say what ever you want about Commodore engineers but the A3640 is a piece of **** engineering?
Yes[/*:m:14hv18pc]
The card is the bottle neck when frequency is increased. If it runs at 40mhz, the motherboard will generate extra heat too (SuperBuster, Ramsey, Alice, etc. jfr da9000@a.org)
No[/*:m:14hv18pc]
If the card runs at 40mhz it will die faster (caps or other) Yes[/*:m:14hv18pc]


:-) Now, my boing balls are in line. I agree, lets do the 33mhz frequency.


Just let me know who I have to send the bits to. We might need to re-evaluate pricing too as I have a rather sexy Blue LED Fan/Heatsink combo which I can supply with the CPU & X-Tal.
Tbh, I'd just solder the X-Tal straight onto the A3640. Mine is not sweet enough to be used in a socket. It's been on & off things more times than a wh0res drawers have been up & down! :|

Kin

arnljot
17th April 2009, 01:01
I have inspected the caps (105, 106 and 107) closely now. None of them are leaking, but all three are mounted the wrong way around.

I've also asked Anthony Hoffman if he has a v3.2 u209 (pre-programmed Lattice GAL22V10D-10LJ GAL).

C102B and C102E are hard to inspect since they are beneath the heatsink. But they appear to be fine too.

da9000
17th April 2009, 11:20
Also, The Mobo will be fine because the timing is sent to the card & as da9000 already concurs, the architecture of the A3640 is very dodgy at these kind of speeds.


No, no. AFAIK, the EXT jumpers say: get me the clock for the motherboard from an external source. The source SENDS the clock to the mobo. That source happens to be the A3640. So if that card is running with a 66Mhz crystal oscillator, the motherboard is getting 33Mhz to drive the custom chips. Which means they'll be overclocked, so the motherboard won't be "fine", unless those chips are cooled.

@arnljot:
To make this brief: if you're going to overclock it, which I think is OK as long as it's done right, then do it properly:
1) cool the CPU
2) cool the A3640 (chips on it get hot), also replace SMD caps
3) cool the custom chips and any other motherboard chips that get hot, I'd also replace the SMD caps

Don't expect miracles, but a ~37Mhz 040'ed A3640 will allow you to play Doom nicely ;-)

And anything that doesn't need high memory bandwidth (3D games and such do, mp3 player does not), will run quite happily, while at 25Mhz it wouldn't have.

Kin Hell
17th April 2009, 11:48
@ da9000

'Put the gun down' - 'Put the gun down'. :mrgreen:

:Doh: - Someone smoke me a Kipper & I'll be back for breakfast.........

The Mobo always takes it's speed from the Crystal on the Mobo.

The INT/EXT jumpers merely tell the Amiga which Speed crystal to use for the CPU/FPU, NOT the Chipset! :wink:

Kin

TheCorfiot
17th April 2009, 22:09
The Mobo always takes it's speed from the Crystal on the Mobo.

The INT/EXT jumpers merely tell the Amiga which Speed crystal to use for the CPU/FPU, NOT the Chipset! :wink:

Kin

I absolutely agree with Kin.

The Mobo conatains 2 Oscillators
1 - 50MHz which is used in "INT" mode to drive the 3620/30 CPU card which has no oscillator on board or "EXT" which means the relevent CPU Slot pins will hold the clock generated by the CPU card's on board oscilator, for ex, the A3640.

2 - 28.37516MHz (for PAL) this Oscillator is used for the chipset timing & is independant of the CPU oscillator.

I think the speed limitations of the A3640 are mainly down to the card's board design & the speed that some of the devices can operate at, the delay line does not help either as it fixes the range but by altering the delay line (as rkauer suggests) higher speeds can be attempted but failure or stability maybe compromised due to crosstalk & noise problems due to the cards track layout..etc.

TC :mrgreen:

rkauer
18th April 2009, 03:12
Also, the (again) MC68040 will not produce any heat (true: cooler than a 060!). The XC versions are another matter.

The NTSC versions have a motherboard clock of 28.8383 (NTSC clock). Good for people who converts a NTSC unit and reuse the crystal on some old GVP 030 @25MHz :wink:

Any "overclock" over 33MHz (even "under clocks"!) on the A3640 must have the mod made, even to run at 34Mhz.

But in a better world you will swap the PAL chips on this pure crap board to GAL units. I have more details on how to make it, not pertaining to the thread.

The defence rest, M'lord.

arnljot
18th April 2009, 08:59
My head is spinning and I have vertigo.

This is why we at my job normally donīt let the engineers correspond per email with the client on CC. We usually gather in a room with a whiteboard and then have the thing hammered out within 0.5h

:lol:

This is poetic justice I guess, or pathetic. Either way, Iīm totally lost :-D

Kin Hell
18th April 2009, 09:02
Where is the A3640 card atm?

arnljot
18th April 2009, 09:09
Ah, someone assertive - I respond well to that.

It is in an antistatic bag, inside a box. In the living room. Next to a huge pile of Amiga gear.

In prioritized order, this is what it needs done:

Changed and corrected caps[/*:m:3qhn5reg]
Upgraded to v3.2 Anthony Hoffman has given me a good deal on that[/*:m:3qhn5reg]
Underclock and activly cool. 33mhz as my boing balls have shrunk.[/*:m:3qhn5reg]

Now, how this will be done I have no idea atm.

Kin Hell
18th April 2009, 09:51
Okay Arnljot. Is the card slik Screened as a 3.1 (Along the CPU connector edge) with GAL chip U209 ending - 02? (Top Left area of card with CPU Connector nearest you)

For reference Pic, see the Pic here on TC's Thread....

Linky (http://www.amibay.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=2220&p=19246#p19246)

In the Pic, U209 Gal chip is the one in the bottom right corner of pic. That ends -01 & is normal for a Rev 3.0 A3640.
A Rev 3.1 A3640 is silk Screened 3.1 by the CPU Connector but U209 will end -02.
A Rev 3.2 A3640 is Silk Screened 3.1, but U209 will end -03!

The other GAL Chips might also be different revisions depending on the overall revison of the A3640 & Anthony Hoffman is probably your best bet for the Tech! :wink:

Kin

arnljot
18th April 2009, 11:32
We've covered this (http://amibay.com/viewtopic.php?p=19267#p19267), it's a v3.1 card most likely.



I have no idea what version it is. It has no sticker on U209.

It just reads:
TI
22V10-10CFN
40307XWAF

Is there any software way to tell?

Also here (http://amibay.com/viewtopic.php?p=19273#p19273):



If you find a MC68040 (not the fry-an-egg XC68040), you can overclock even the 25MHz over 40MHz without issues (on 3.1 and 3.2 boards).

Ah, crap. I've only found an XC - I'll continue to scout for an MC then.


Your board don't have any sticker?
U401, U208, U207, U213, U203 and U400 have stickers. They all say "*-01" and stuff like "exlat", "term" "mapper", "rst", "lebus" and "oebus".


Also there is the version printed on the board, near the socket.

Aha! I do have a 3.1 board :)


So: For some reason the sticker on my U209 has been removed. So the text on it not indicative of the version. But I think it's safe to assume it's a v3.1 card. It could be version 3.2 but that is unlikely. Just as it's unlikely it's v3.0, since it's silkscreened v3.1

Kin Hell
18th April 2009, 12:09
Great stuff Arnljot. The label probably came off with Age & heat. They literally curl up with age!

I guess you dont want my 40Mhz XC 040 to run it cooler @ 33Mhz! :?:

Heres a Pic of a 3.2 - TC owns this now! - Any Help for you?

You're only concerned with the numbers after the dash. (-) :wink:

& as rkauer so elequantly puts it, GAL are better than PAL even though my old Rev 3.2 has PAL chips fitted! :lol:

Kin

*edit*

The Pic rkauer shows with a jumper wire is NOT needed, though I'm sure someone with the tech. knowledge can explain why?

arnljot
18th April 2009, 17:17
I still want it Kin Hell. No changes on that part of the plan. We are going to rise it from 25mhz to 33mhz this board. But I do want a 40mhz piece then.

But I need to know from Zetr0 if he also can do caps and a new GAL for this. If not I'll have Anthony Hoffman do it. It just changes logistics.

rkauer
18th April 2009, 18:52
<SNIP>

& as rkauer so elequantly puts it, GAL are better than PAL even though my old Rev 3.2 has PAL chips fitted! :lol:

Kin

*edit*

The Pic rkauer shows with a jumper wire is NOT needed, though I'm sure someone with the tech. knowledge can explain why?

OK, more technical info: the delay line acts as a filter, but impends the boards to run in higher frequencies than the original 50MHz bus. The A3640 design uses delay lines for part of it's clock circuitry, tying up frequencies. So eliminating this specific delay will free the board for some time constrains.

Notice that some 3640 will not work with at 33MHz (66MHz crystal) if the cut-and-join hack is not done. But those boards will work at 30MHz if a 60MHz crystal is fitted, instead (no hack this time).

arnljot
18th April 2009, 18:59
@rkauer

When you say some, do you mean regardless of revision or do you mean some pre v3.2?

Also, can one determine which ones by inspecting them or is it Lotto?

Kin Hell
18th April 2009, 20:27
Butting in, my 1992 Rev 3.1 had a 66Mhz Crystal Mod without rkauers explanation of the Wire mod & was 101% Rock Solid. Active cooling was added though! ;)

Kin

rkauer
19th April 2009, 00:05
@rkauer

When you say some, do you mean regardless of revision or do you mean some pre v3.2?

Also, can one determine which ones by inspecting them or is it Lotto?

The mileage may vary... Some 3.1 boards accept a 66MHz oscillator without the hack (like Kin's one), others only go up to 60MHz without hack. With the wire bridge-and-cut job even 37MHz (depending on the 040 version) and some rare boards can go up to 40MHz (80MHz crystal!).

arnljot
20th April 2009, 17:13
I'll be doing the "safe thing" then. I'll be going for 33mhz. And it's going to be done by Anthony Hoffman in NZ. He'll also upgrade it to v3.2

Kin Hell
23rd April 2009, 00:19
@ rkauer

Thanks for the Technical info there m8, really apprecited! :thumbsup:

@ Arnljot

Last PM from you was kinda joking/hinting @ the Cooler I have here for a few bucks more & we haven't discussed further!
I expect it should pull off the 060 CPU okay but I dont have a working socket to fit your 040 in other than a knackered CSMKIII that has a reworked and rebuilt socket array. Whilst any CPU in there does still get warm, it's an absolute sod of a job getting any CPU into the rebuilt socket due to the slightly irregular pin socket alignment. I did swap out 060's to take the CPU being dead out of the equation but it was a 2 hour event! :wooha:

If I pull the cooler off the 060, it leaves a sticky Thermal Pad on the Heatsink which I can not protect once removed. If I could drop the 040 into my dead CSMKII, I'd have to desolder the Voltage regulator Resistor on the CSMKIII in the home built socket in order to Juice the 040, thereby getting the Thermal pad warm in order to get it stuckk on for real. All these bloody new Icons & not a single "Flogging a Dead Horse" smiley anywhere! :stick:

I might be able to find a bit of plastic somewhere to press on for protection for shipping to Anthony, but it could all be in vain anyway. I really need to fire the 060 in a socket to warm it for removal which could make the whole frigging event a 4 hour job! :tired:

Whatchya wanna do? - Buy some thermal Pads from somewhere? - I'm fresh out & wanna do the right thing for you! :Doh:

Beer time! :beer:

Charlie

arnljot
23rd April 2009, 22:50
@Kin

I've PM'ed you re the cooler and pad.

Also, I'm seriously starting to consider your CR card. I'm going to look in previous correspondance to see if it also has a battery. :)

Kin Hell
24th April 2009, 00:47
Before I look @ your PM's, yeah the Cr board has a battery. It's the Coin type like the A4KT & it only has DIMM slots for Fast Ram. The Chip Ram is surface mounted on the Mobo & the 030 is also on the Mobo! There's also a 33Mhz PLCC FPU fitted but it runs @ 25Mhz as per the CPU X-Tal. There is a mounting for another X-Tal to run the FPU at a faster speed, though the position is naked atm! :mrgreen:

Charlie

arnljot
24th April 2009, 00:50
I look forward to hearing from you! Waiting with xitement! :P :woot:

da9000
24th April 2009, 10:46
The Mobo always takes it's speed from the Crystal on the Mobo.
The INT/EXT jumpers merely tell the Amiga which Speed crystal to use for the CPU/FPU, NOT the Chipset! :wink:
Kin

I absolutely agree with Kin.

The Mobo conatains 2 Oscillators
1 - 50MHz which is used in "INT" mode to drive the 3620/30 CPU card which has no oscillator on board or "EXT" which means the relevent CPU Slot pins will hold the clock generated by the CPU card's on board oscilator, for ex, the A3640.
2 - 28.37516MHz (for PAL) this Oscillator is used for the chipset timing & is independant of the CPU oscillator.
TC :mrgreen:

Hmmm.. perhaps I'm confused because I was thinking of the A3000 (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys ... d72b41260c (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.hardware/browse_thread/thread/75f6a1b6f0eef210/3515e1d72b41260c?lnk=gst&q=3000+bus+speed#3515e1d72b41260c)), but after re-reading the master's (Dave Haynie) explanation, I don't see why the custom chips on the A4000 would be clocked differently than those in the A3000. Perhaps they're "pinned" at 25Mhz, but the overclocked A3640 benchmarks show RAM bandwidth goes up, which shouldn't (at least not as much) if only the CPU clock changed and not the custom chip clocks.

More specifically, using Frank Wille's memspeed v1.1 I get the following:

1)
50Mhz crystal, CPU@25Mhz:
----------------------------------------
ChipRAM: 3998 (read) 3990 (write) 1995 (copy)
FastRAM: 11427 (read) 6070 (write) 4006 (copy)
ROM: 10310 (read)
Note: default standard setup (25Mhz rated CPU running at 25Mhz)

2)
55Mhz crystal, CPU@55Mhz by using Macintosh "doubler" module:
----------------------------------------
ChipRAM: 3971 (read) 3943 (write) 1989 (copy)
FastRAM: 11493 (read) 6003 (write) 3913 (copy)
ROM: 10476 (read)
Note: 40Mhz rated CPU speed doubled. I *had* to use 55Mhz because it wouldn't "take" at 50Mhz. Stupid A3640 timing problems. MAPROM disabled.

3)
66Mhz crystal, CPU@33Mhz:
----------------------------------------
ChipRAM: 4941 (read) 4898 (write) 2461 (copy)
FastRAM: 15017 (read) 8072 (write) 5219 (copy)
ROM: 13565 (read)
Note: overclocked setup (25Mhz rated CPU running at 33Mhz)

4)
74Mhz crystal, CPU@37Mhz:
----------------------------------------
ChipRAM: 6880 (read) 6967 (write) 3484 (copy)
FastRAM: 16960 (read) 9070 (write) 5863 (copy)
ROM: 15252 (read)
Note: overclocked setup (40Mhz rated CPU running at 37Mhz)


General notes: all units in kB/s, 4000D-CR mobo without riser card, A3640 v3.1, Kickstart 3.1, Ramsey skip bit optimization off


Analysis:
Compare setup 1 and 2. With more than 2x the CPU speed the memory benchmarks remain the same. Now compare setup 2 and 3. In setup 3 the CPU is slower by 33/55=60% but the memory performance blows away the 55Mhz CPU setup because the custom chips/bus is running at 33Mhz vs. 55/2=27.5Mhz! Respectively for 2 vs. 4, only the difference is even greater.


Cheers!

@arnljot: yes, you do want to overclock this A3640 ***** ;-)

EDIT:
What I would like to do if I have time is to put a thermostat on Ramsey and FatGary (and possibly some of the other custom chips) and see what their thermal fingerprints are before and after the overclock. While I had the fan blowing on the CPU, I didn't notice them being hot at all, but some air was going over them as well (I had the blower on the side, covering the top and bottom of the A3640).

TheCorfiot
24th April 2009, 10:55
@da9000

Very interesting reading my friend, always good to see the results in print.
I'm going to have a good look at the schematics and try to piece this together but I do wish I had the schems on a single large sheet than small A4 bits & pieces, doesn't make the job easier :laugh:

Best Regards as always
TC :mrgreen:

da9000
24th April 2009, 11:50
I hear ya TC (about the schematics being all cut up like a puzzle). I've been meaning to print them out and paste them in one big blueprint but haven't done so yet :-( I should also look at the schematics but unfortunately I have to sleep soon coz of work and by the time work ends, well I don't have much time/energy to do much :-( So I'll count on you my friend :-)

da9000
24th April 2009, 11:54
I expect it should pull off the 060 CPU okay but I dont have a working socket to fit your 040 in other than a knackered CSMKIII that has a reworked and rebuilt socket array. Whilst any CPU in there does still get warm, it's an absolute sod of a job getting any CPU into the rebuilt socket due to the slightly irregular pin socket alignment. I did swap out 060's to take the CPU being dead out of the equation but it was a 2 hour event! :wooha:

If I pull the cooler off the 060, it leaves a sticky Thermal Pad on the Heatsink which I can not protect once removed. If I could drop the 040 into my dead CSMKII, I'd have to desolder the Voltage regulator Resistor on the CSMKIII in the home built socket in order to Juice the 040, thereby getting the Thermal pad warm in order to get it stuckk on for real. All these bloody new Icons & not a single "Flogging a Dead Horse" smiley anywhere! :stick:

I might be able to find a bit of plastic somewhere to press on for protection for shipping to Anthony, but it could all be in vain anyway. I really need to fire the

Kinnie, I have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about up here, but I got one bit: something about an 040 socket. Let me know if you need one. I have. If you want to reword it in English this time (and not Kinnish :-p), then please do so. Perhaps I can help further.



Beer time! :beer:

Charlie


OK, now I understand what happened... :-D

TheCorfiot
24th April 2009, 12:26
I hear ya TC (about the schematics being all cut up like a puzzle). I've been meaning to print them out and paste them in one big blueprint but haven't done so yet :-( I should also look at the schematics but unfortunately I have to sleep soon coz of work and by the time work ends, well I don't have much time/energy to do much :-( So I'll count on you my friend :-)


Puzzle aint the word my friend, Nightmare :ROTFLOL2:

Do you know if you compare the A1200 & A4000 Schematics, even common signal lines are named differently between the two platforms :nuts:

I'll see what I can come up with.

Nighty Night
TC :wink:

Kin Hell
26th April 2009, 16:25
@ TC @ da9000

Look at the X-Tals on the A4KD Mobo. 50Mhz & 28.xxxMhz

In the case of the A4KD Rev B (Rev D has different locations & orientation of X-Tals) the 50Mhz is where the 25Mhz 030 gets its speed from. The Black Rectangular Chip next to the 50Mhz X-Tal having 8 widely spaced legs is a Divide by 2 Counter, reducing the 50Mhz X-Tal to 25Mhz & is where the 030 CPU gets it's speed from with the INT/EXT jumpers set to INT. Don't forget, the 030 Cards in the A4KD also have their own Jumper settings for implementing use of either a PGA or PLCC type packaged FPU. These jumpers can be set in such a manner to either use the mobos 50Mhz X-Tal & divide by 2 counter to set the FPU @ the same speed of 25Mhz as the CPU on the 030 card, or.......you can fit an X-Tal of what ever frequency on the A3630 card to run the FPU @ a clock speed independant from the 030 CPU Speed.
J100 1-2 Use FPU in PLCC Socket
2-3 Use FPU in PGA Socket
J101 1-2 Use optional on-board oscillator at U103 for FPU Clock
2-3 Use CPU Clock as FPU Clock

The C= A3640 also Employs this arrangement of 50Mhz X-Tal & divide by 2 counter to derive it's default 25Mhz speed on the 040 CPU, but both the INT/EXT mobo jumpers need to be set to EXT in order to use a C= A3640 card. There is no option of jumpers on the A3640 Card for FPU's as the FPU is in the 040 Chip itself.

There is no need to go looking up this that & the other about overclocks affecting/effecting the Amiga's Chipset because the 28Mhz X-Tal is the one dealing with the Chipset speed & the Bus speed across the mobo. You will also find there are slightly different 28.xxxxMhz X-Tal speeds across the range of A3000, A4000 & A1200 for example...but this is just a brand thing & not required for the Bus or Chipset to operate. The Bus & Chipset has a range in which it can operate effectively.

RE going further into specific speeds crossed with whatever other factors, the above is basis for overclocking the CPU only & as to the CPU affecting/effecting bus speeds & ram speeds in the Amiga, I have to say a Firm no & appreciate TC already endorsed this fact.

As final proof in trying to explain these fundamental principles, take a CSMKIII card or a CSPPC card. There is facility on these cards to totally seperate the processor cards CPU & Bus Speeds & if you read my Overclocking CSPPC thread on AmiBay, I exploited this facility. So much so & to such an extent, I burnt my CSMKIII beyond repair as the Cards logic now appears to be "Toast". :blink:


Hope this helps, even if in Kinnie Language! :lol:

All the best chaps,

Charlie

TheCorfiot
26th April 2009, 17:01
The query I wanted to clear up in my mind was regarding RAMSEY being clocked by the chipset oscillator or by the CPU's as we know the ext Clock CPU does get fed back to the board via the CPU slot.

So it looks like the onboard RAM and Zorro III bandwidth is fixed then and runs asynchronous to the CPU.

TC :D

arnljot
5th May 2009, 22:42
In regards to xtal on mb vs on cpu.

I've used 25mhz 030 and 50mhz 060 on my A4000. But never noticed that the mb runs hotter with the CS 060. So doesn't that confirm that the MB is asynchronous to the CPU card in that respect?

Kin Hell
5th May 2009, 22:47
In regards to xtal on mb vs on cpu.

I've used 25mhz 030 and 50mhz 060 on my A4000. But never noticed that the mb runs hotter with the CS 060. So doesn't that confirm that the MB is asynchronous to the CPU card in that respect?

Exact-a-mundo! :mrgreen:

However, a Warp engined 040 @ 40Mhz will dissipate more heat than an 060 @ 50Mhz & Air flow in an A4KD is not as good as perhaps an A4KT is. Consequently, a 40Mhz 040 in a desktop Amiga without added airflow could theoretically warm up the entire environment within the case, thereby making the Amiga Chipset run slightly hotter than normal. :wink:

Kin

Kin Hell
19th May 2009, 13:14
Arnljot,

I recieved an Email from Anthony Hoffman yesterday. Your 40Mhz 040 CPU, 66Mhz X-Tal & heatsink/Fan combo are now in his hands, waiting for your stuff to arrive from Norway! :beer:

All the best m8y,

Kin

arnljot
19th May 2009, 14:45
:yourock:

Noted, I've behaved accordingly as required of me by the amiBay regulations :run:

Kin Hell
19th May 2009, 18:06
So I see! :lol:

Kin

rkauer
20th May 2009, 04:25
Thread closed, then. :wink:

[EDIT]As Arnjot requested, thread is re-opened.

arnljot
20th May 2009, 23:12
Thank you, I need to keep this open. I want to inform you all when I receive the card in return so that y'all know how it ends ;-)

Kin Hell
21st May 2009, 13:37
Arnljot,

I posted your Rev D Cr A4KD Mobo this morning. You should have it in 3 days. Have sent you an Email with all the Deets.

Let me know when you have her!

Best for now,

Charlie

arnljot
24th June 2009, 14:58
I received a mail from Anthony yesterday, my A3640 cannot work at speeds above 25mhz, not 30, 33 or 40. 25 thats it.

But he has upgraded it to 3.2, so there is some concellation in that.

So my boing balls have shrunk, and are normal size now.

Kin Hell
25th June 2009, 19:18
Unlucky m8y! :|

Kin

arnljot
8th July 2009, 16:50
Report back from Anthony, my card could not handle speeds above 25mhz. So that's end of story I guess?

My boing balls are normal size it seems.

rkauer
8th July 2009, 19:17
Toss a full 040 (with FPU and MMU) on it and nothing more. Better a slow but working unit than an over clocked one without stability.

arnljot
9th July 2009, 00:14
Toss a full 040 (with FPU and MMU) on it and nothing more. Better a slow but working unit than an over clocked one without stability.

It has a full 25mhz 040 on it, and if it doesn't I'll put the 040 I bought from Kin Hell on it.

Kin Hell
9th July 2009, 00:46
Tbh Arnljot, I would think AH would have just left the 40Mhz 040 loose in your package with the original 25Mhz 040 in the A3640 card. Still feel for you about this & very suprised he could not get any overclock out of the Rev 3.1 A3640 at all. :shrug:

40Mhz 040's are getting harder to find & I'm sure you would have no problem getting your money back on it considering the very fair price you paid for her.

Good luck with any spin round you could possibly make on the 40Mhz part. I'm sure there could be a small margin in it for you. :wink:

Charlie

arnljot
21st July 2009, 23:49
Not sure what to do with the kit. Happy to have it, but don't know what I'll use it for.

Maybe I'll try to move the 040, or maybe I'll try and see if I can find a doc who will embedd it in my brain :-)