PDA

View Full Version : 68000 + Picasso II = Super Slow ?



dougal
12th March 2012, 12:46
My Picasso II arrived today and all seems fine but I do have some issues which are mostly related to speed.

The Spec of my A2000 is as follows:

A2000 Rev4.4 PAL - 1MB Chip Ram
68000 CPU @ 7.09Mhz
GVP HC8+ SCSI / RAM with 8MB on board
Village Tronic Picasso II (2MB Version)
1GB Hard drive
Kickstart 3.1 ROM and Workbench 3.1 OS installed

NOTE: NOT using P96 drivers because I heard they won't work on 68000 cpu.

The GVP SCSI is jumpered down to 6MB (Still has 8MB onboard) so that the Picasso II will NOT be Segmatid (or whatever the word is).

The following Boards are reported with WhichAmiga

Which Amiga reports the following cards:

Great Valley Producs Series II / HC8+ SCSI 64K
Great Valley Products Series II RAM 4MB
Great Valley Products Series II RAM 2MB
Village Tronic Picasso II(+) Memory 2MB
Village Tronic Picasso II(+) 64K

My problems are these:

If I select Picasso modes in PREFS/ScreenMode the Amiga slows down. The higher the resolution or higher the colors the slower it gets. At 640x480, EVEN at 8 colors Workbench is considerably MUCH slower.

At 256 Colors it is SUPER slow and my Chipram is reduced to around 500KB even at 640x480.

1024x768 is interlaced. Is this normal ?

I cannot get more than 256 colors in PREFS/ScreenMode. But if I go in the PicassoII utilities folder and select the Picasso tool I can choose some Village64 monitors and it shows options for 15/16 bit and 24 bit and Test works but I don't know what to do next.

I believe that most of the problems are related to the slow 68000 Stock CPU and not being able to use Picasso96 (because of the CPU). But i'd like confirmation and maybe some more detail.

If it helps, I am awaiting an A2630 (68030 @ 25Mhz) but it will take about 3 weeks to arrive.

I'm also wait for one of those GB8220 Scandoubler/Flickerfixers to arrive.

Laudrup
12th March 2012, 13:48
Even with a 030/28 its not a turbo miggy at all. Dont expect too much from this upgrade. I haven`t tried the Picasso with a stock 68000 but i wonder, that this even works :) You should wait for the new cpu card..

fitzsteve
12th March 2012, 14:06
This is the speed of PicassoII on my old A4000 with an 030/25mhz CPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg2xQJU68HI

I expect you'll get similar results, maybe a little slower as I had a ZIII Ram Expansion installed.

This was 16bit colour 800x600 and Workbench 3.1 (Classic Workbench ADV)

All the best,
Steve.

D.B
12th March 2012, 14:09
You will need at least an 020 CPU card for the Picasso Drivers alone & your A2000 should be fine on WB3.1 as the minimum here is WB2. :thumbsup:

dougal
12th March 2012, 14:22
This is the speed of PicassoII on my old A4000 with an 030/25mhz CPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg2xQJU68HI

I expect you'll get similar results, maybe a little slower as I had a ZIII Ram Expansion installed.

This was 16bit colour 800x600 and Workbench 3.1 (Classic Workbench ADV)

All the best,
Steve.

That would be awesome! Though i don't have 40mb fastram but 6Mb.

Mine is unimaginably slow, but it must be due to the old Picasso II drivers and also due to the 68000 cpu.

lostrego
12th March 2012, 17:58
If my memory is ok what you are describing is an issue related to the use of a plain 68000's 24 bit ram addressing an perhaps something involved in how the amiga addresses RAM for zorro II expansions.

Taken from here: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=466

and also here: http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/picasso2

"For A2000 owners, the Picasso II also supports segmented memory. This means that the graphics card can still be used, even if you currently have other peripherals (such as memory) which are using up the full Zorro II address space. However in segmented memory mode, performance is degraded and applications may not behave very well. Please also note, that depending on the RTG driver you use (P96, CGX, EGS), segmented mode may not be supported. To change to segmented memory mode, there is a jumper next to a row of four chips, on the right hand side of the card. This should be ON to enable segmented memory. "

and:

"with 8 MB Zorro II fast RAM the board has to be run in segmented mode - lower performance"

So Sumarizing there is a limit o max 8MB 16 bit "fast" RAM on zorro bus to be present, the picasso II do a workaround on this but wit the performance impact yo can see, and this also could be the explanation of the chipmem being used .

Take in mind that the picasso II already ates 2MB of the ZII RAM addressing capabilities, and the use of 16bit fast mem under Zorro II expansions may have a negative performance impact by itself (even not using the above described segmented mode), but if I were you I'll do a tryout by lowering the fastmen on that GVP card to 6 or even 4 MB.

The best solution for avoiding this kind of things is, like everyone has told previously, the use of an 020 or better accelerator with some real 32 bit fastmem (at least 4MB or even more, RTG cards do need a quite big amount of memory to work in nice modes, say 1024x768@16bit etc...) .

Hope it helps. :)

dougal
12th March 2012, 18:06
lostrego: For the Picasso II to be in segmented mode i read it needs a jumper closed. That jumper is not closed and i have set my zorro ii ram board to 6MB which the Amiga sees though i must say that i did not physically remove the ram simms.

But that should not be the problem it must be the CPU

lostrego
12th March 2012, 18:13
Note I haven't read previously that you lowered the GVP's RAM to 6MB already, but ther are some extra KB used by autoconfig firmwares that may still force your Picasso II to run in segmented mode.

Great Valley Producs Series II / HC8+ SCSI 64K
Village Tronic Picasso II(+) 64K

So try to run that GVP's fast RAM with 5MB if posibble or with 4MB (I dont know how ram is configured on that GVP card)

Too fast reading has this problems sometimes. :lol:

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:10 ----------


lostrego: For the Picasso II to be in segmented mode i read it needs a jumper closed. That jumper is not closed and i have set my zorro ii ram board to 6MB which the Amiga sees though i must say that i did not physically remove the ram simms.

But that should not be the problem it must be the CPU

Perhaps is this more likely, also the thing you describe of it using chipmem is an aditional bottleneck.

dougal
12th March 2012, 19:30
Note I haven't read previously that you lowered the GVP's RAM to 6MB already, but ther are some extra KB used by autoconfig firmwares that may still force your Picasso II to run in segmented mode.

Great Valley Producs Series II / HC8+ SCSI 64K
Village Tronic Picasso II(+) 64K

So try to run that GVP's fast RAM with 5MB if posibble or with 4MB (I dont know how ram is configured on that GVP card)

Too fast reading has this problems sometimes. :lol:

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:10 ----------


lostrego: For the Picasso II to be in segmented mode i read it needs a jumper closed. That jumper is not closed and i have set my zorro ii ram board to 6MB which the Amiga sees though i must say that i did not physically remove the ram simms.

But that should not be the problem it must be the CPU

Perhaps is this more likely, also the thing you describe of it using chipmem is an aditional bottleneck.

I tried reducing it to 4MB but still slow.

What is the problem is:

Slow refresh rates

Increasing colors (even 16 colors) starts eating away at chipram.

Please note, Rev4.4 board which was originally 512K chip and 512K fast but i changed the Agnus to 8372A and did the hack so that 512K fast ram on board is addressed as chipram.

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:01 ----------

http://youtu.be/RxDGgBf6zaI

I took a video to show the speed. Its at 800x600 at 16 colors. Over 700K chipmem free.

The flickering is caused by the camera recording the CRT monitor. It does NOT flicker in real life. Excuse the bad quality.

BlindGerMan
12th March 2012, 20:06
What refresh rates do you have? Have you tried a TFT?

dougal
12th March 2012, 20:37
Refresh as in screen refresh

BlindGerMan
12th March 2012, 20:38
How much Hz do you get?

D.B
12th March 2012, 21:04
@ dougal

B2000/A2000/A1500.....

16Bit Bus. (ZORRO II)


A3000/T/4000/T.....

32Bit bus (ZORRO III)

16Bit Bus or 32Bit bus with 68000 is a win for 32Bit bus, though Amiga's on 32Bit were only 68020 @ worst on AGA machines, whereas A3KD/T's were 32Bit on 030's only on ECS. (not counting Phonenix) - Better Memory Bandwidth being 32Bits wide & 64Bits wide on CSMKIII/PPC cards. :thumbsup:

Your A2000 with it's 16Bit Bus is really restricted, even with an 030 card in it. If it's a C= A2630 & you can hang a 32BIT memory card off the back of it, or even it's own 2/4Mb ZIP Ram and it will floor any other FAST Ram in the A/B2000 A1500

The bottle-neck is your A A/B2000 A1500's 16Bit only Mobo: CPU Speed will help & you reap benefits from the A3640 with the DKB add-on (72 Pin SIMMS access faster than ZIP's), but when you have to go through a 16Bit Mobo from a 32Bit capable CPU card to Graphics card (Picasso II) you will see wrong things.

Chuck your Picasso II into a C= Stock 030 ZORRO III Amiga and you will see better things.....

Much like you will see for being patient & waiting for the A3630 to arrive. :)

Forget your Monitor Hz-idge until you get a better CPU behind it & then you can worry about your monitor drivers being the best they can.
That is another can of worms all together. :|

lostrego
12th March 2012, 21:46
@ dougal

The bottle-neck is your A A/B2000 A1500's 16Bit only Mobo: CPU Speed will help & you reap benefits from the A3640 with the DKB add-on (72 Pin SIMMS access faster than ZIP's), but when you have to go through a 16Bit Mobo from a 32Bit capable CPU card to Graphics card (Picasso II) you will see wrong things.

Chuck your Picasso II into a C= Stock 030 ZORRO III Amiga and you will see better things.....

Much like you will see for being patient & waiting for the A3630 to arrive. :)

Forget your Monitor Hz-idge until you get a better CPU behind it & then you can worry about your monitor drivers being the best they can.
That is another can of worms all together. :|

That's not exactly 100% true as the Picasso II is a zorro II only card, it will behave in the same manner on an equal CPU + 32 bit Fast RAM configuration on either Zorro II or Zorro III Amigas ;)

I fact due to some superbuster limitations, the 32bit / Zorro III amigas have slightly lower transfer rates in zorro II mode than an humble A2000 using an equal CPU+ 32 bit RAM config.

As a side note, SpeedGeek has done some research on improving those rates on a Zorro III amigas using zorro II only cards.

See: http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=18537&highlight=zorro

:)

D.B
12th March 2012, 21:51
*cut*

As a side note, SpeedGeek has done some research on improving those rates on a Zorro III amigas using zorro II only cards.

See: http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=18537&highlight=zorro

:)

Didn't I mention that already? :unsure:

Self-


You can put a ZII card in a ZIII Amiga & get better performance.




and transfer rate has nothing to do with Bits-WIDE.

32 is twice 16 & even if optimised 16Bit with 25% better efficeincy than 32Bit stock, 32BIT still blows it being twice the bandwidth/Bit-idge.

You can talk about Transfer Rates over different bus'es but when it comes to Mobo terms, bandwith is in terms of Mobo memory bandwith: The Amount it has to access through it's Motherboard. 16Bits is 16bits & 32Bit CPU or Graphic Boards on 16bit motherboards is bottle-necked. Put the same card in a 32Bit Motherboard and see it live a little more. IE: better performmance. Put a ZIII Picasso in there & die some more.

CPU + GPU = MEGA.

Either missing is bad both ways. The only people to get this right was STB. nVidia bought STB (Voodoo) right's & messed up SLI in a very big way and forgot about True parallel processing. (remember >MX68000/PPC< or forget these cards for ever)
Intel/nVidia have slapped us all saying we need i7 skt 1366/2011 for true 4-way SLI (and it does scale better than earlier chip-sets, 2011 even beating 1366 however slight)

Di-gressing aside, your CSPPC or CSMKIII cards will smoke any 68XXX card on the market because their RAM is accessed @ 64Bits-Wide. In lay-mans terms, it accesess two x 32Bit banks at the same time, effectively the same as your DUAL Channel DDR ram technologies of these days.

As a bonus, your Humble Amiga, even if 16Bit or 32Bit, has more DMA channels than your latest & greatest i7 Skt 2011 Chip.

As for Elbox fudging DMA, they should be ashamed. G-REX got it right on the GREX4000 in so far as DMA was fully functional. On the G-REX12000, DMA is another matter.....

16Bit cards will always as rule of thumb have faster experiences on ZIII Amiga's as ZIII was always ZII backwards-compatible. <--- But only if the Coders wrote Legit software as per C= legislation. Lots did not. :dry:

dougal
12th March 2012, 22:12
Unfortunately I don't have a 32 bit Amiga other than my 060 A1200 but that's useless for RTG without turning it into a Frankenstein. I guess I'm going to have to make do with this one until I can eventually afford another A4000.

D.B
12th March 2012, 22:32
@ dougal
The whole A1200/A4000 architecture is a world apart. The A1200 can get to it's FAST Ram quicker than the A4KD, but put a loaad of ZORRO III cards in there & the A1200 is fubar unless you Elbox or G-REX it.

A4KD v A1200 with Elbox = A4KD win

A4KD_G-REX4000 v A1200_G-REX = A4KD win

An A4KD with G-REX4000D running OS3.9 BB2 via 50Mhz 060 blows away Classic OS4.0/4.1 on PPC @ 233Mhz (aka 204e)

OS4.0/4.1 Classic is the PPC trying to emulate PC stuff.

OS 4/.1 was written for PC architecture...... NOT Amiga hardware or even PPC architecture. :roll:

dougal
13th March 2012, 08:46
I might be buying a GVP Geforce 040.. Maybe! That should make ALL the difference. Fingers crossed.

---------- Post added at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 ----------

I just bought a GVP Geforce 040 card... Should that eliminate my concerns ?

fitzsteve
13th March 2012, 08:48
040 + RTG should be a nice setup mate, how much Ram on the GVP? The Simms can be a bit tricky/expensive to get so it helps if you 're getting some bundled with it :)

dougal
13th March 2012, 09:01
He said he can sell me ram at $30 for each 4MB.. Sounds expensive.

Is there absolutely no way to get normal SIMMS to work ?

fitzsteve
13th March 2012, 09:09
He said he can sell me ram at $xx for each 4MB.. Sounds expensive.

Is there absolutely no way to get normal SIMMS to work ?

Can't give you any direct price advice but expect to pay a lot more than normal 72pin simms. You can search this site to see what GVP simms have sold for ;)

D.B
13th March 2012, 15:47
He said he can sell me ram at $30 for each 4MB.. Sounds expensive.

Is there absolutely no way to get normal SIMMS to work ?

Nope. They are unique unto themselves.

Maybe you could consider a brand of card that uses 72Pin simms (Not many) or just get any brand of A2000 card that already has at least 4Mb Fast Ram. The C= A2620/30 cards use Zip Chips & they are like hens teeth & on par for scarceness like the GVP SIMMs.
I also understand there is a 72Pin Ram Card for the C= A2630. It fits to the back of the card.

lostrego
13th March 2012, 16:44
@D.B.

You are right, I was only telling that the picasso II is a Zorro II only card so there will be no major performace impact on using it on a ZIII amiga if the cpu+fastmem used are equal, only that. :thumbsup:

And of course that CPU and Fastmem used (say turbo cards) play a big role in this kind of scenarios.

But i was thinking in something like that:

A2000 + Phase 5's Blizard 2060 turbo card.

and

A3000/4000 + Phase 5's Cyberstorm MKII 060 turbo card.

At the internals the Blizzard 2060 and the Cyberstorm MKII 060 are the same turbo card, say the same CPU, the same (local) fastmem 32BIt memory bus, and the same architecture. It changes only the way of how the turbo card "talks" to the rest of the Amiga: 16 bit and 32 bit bus respectively.

But with a Picasso II, as a 16 bit card that is (zorro II only), it doesn't matter a lot that the amiga you use is a 16 or 32 Bit one, the "talking" between the GFX card an the CPU+RAM is still done by a 16 bit bus, so there are no performace changes at all on the picasso II speeds using it on either the two machines I told above.

Of course if the card used is a Z II / Z III autosensing one, like the Picasso IV or the Cybervision 3D are, it would benefit a lot by using it on a ZIII amiga by taking advantage of 32 bit bus transfers.

Hope I clarify myself a bit, as sometimes I tend to turn over several times a matter to explain it (that's a well known bug of mine) :lol:

Regards :)

D.B
13th March 2012, 21:19
Sure lostrego, np. :thumbsup: