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mord
1st December 2014, 22:56
I just got a pal amiga 1000 and I cant seem to get color from it. I tried 3 TV's using the comp out and also tried a A520 from my amiga 500 which also was black & white. I heard that early pal was ntsc modified or something??? the board is like new,with no mods/wires added. it has another board that plugs in upside down(don't know what this is other than other a1000's can have it too) that plugs in with a lot of pin headers.

I read somewhere that you can mod the metal box part(video section) to give better pal?? I cant find anything on this on the net. amiga.org has some posts about a1000 color problems,but it seems to be down??? can anyone help with this problems??

ajk
2nd December 2014, 05:26
I think it was indeed that the early PAL A1000s were NTSC models which were only partially adapted to the PAL standards, and the colour carrier frequency remains NTSC. I don't see why the A520 also outputs in black and white though, would have imagined that it has its own crystals. Hopefully someone knows about the internal modification needed.

Still, composite isn't that great so you might want to consider getting a TV with SCART (less common in Australia, I know), an s-video adapter, GBS8220 board or any number of other display options.

protek
2nd December 2014, 09:24
@mord: Do you get color composite out of the A520, when it's connected to the A500?

mord
2nd December 2014, 10:42
yes I think it was ok on the 500 will check again when I get some free time

bakoulis
2nd December 2014, 11:38
The composite out of A1000 IS B&W.
If you want colors, just use the 23-pin RGB port connected on an Amiga monitor!
I am not sure even if you can have colors, if you connect a 23-pin RGB -> scart cable like an A500 or A1200 on LCD.
90% a proper RGB -> scart cable will gives color picture but I haven't test it personally.
;)

RichyV
2nd December 2014, 11:47
The composite out of A1000 IS B&W.


I don't believe that this is 100% the case...

There are certainly A1000's out there that do seems to output monochrome for some - it was certainly the fact that, in early editions, the PAL output was cobbled-together from an originally NTSC machine.

The A1000 though was certainly manufactured to have colour output on the composite port. The first Amiga NOT to give any colour on composite was the A500, and this was intentional (or, at least, an intentional COST-SAVING measure).

ajk
2nd December 2014, 12:21
The A1000 RGB output is perfectly normal and colourful. And indeed the composite should be too, assuming it is a fully fledged PAL model. I think only the A500 and A2000 have monochrome composite output as a rule, the A600 and A1200 already have colour and the other big box models don't have composite output in the first place.

bakoulis
2nd December 2014, 17:36
The A1000 RGB output is perfectly normal and colourful. And indeed the composite should be too, assuming it is a fully fledged PAL model. I think only the A500 and A2000 have monochrome composite output as a rule, the A600 and A1200 already have colour and the other big box models don't have composite output in the first place.
The A1000 is older than A500 and A2000 and probably have the same B&W composite out.
The A1200 and A600 *which have color composite out* are second generation Amigas.
The early A1000 models has B&W composite *like mine* because of NTSC to PAL porting. This not mean that those computers are damaged.
I have all the Amiga models and for that, I have personal opinion.
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@mord: Do you get color composite out of the A520, when it's connected to the A500?

The A520 don't give color output because of NTSC (thin) Agnus! Check the number on your (thin) Agnus of your A1000 and google it!
If you replace the (thin) Agnus of your A1000 with the PAL agnus of your A500, 99% will work with the A520!

FastRobPlus
2nd December 2014, 19:06
I think it is a PAL vs NTSC issue as the NTSC Amiga 1000 does have good color composite output.
If you are in Australia, you might possibly have a Phoenix A1000. Phoenix motherboards have B&W composite output like a 500/2000. Even the 520 adapter gives B&W output on those boards.

Toni.Wilen
2nd December 2014, 19:10
Being older has nothing to do with it. A1000 was designed to support color composite output, A500 and A2000 was not.

All A1000s have color composite encoder chip (PAL/NTSC switchable but needs different external components for PAL/NTSC). Not getting color is simply caused by Commodore being stupid with early "PAL" A1000 revisions. They have PAL Agnus, 220-240v PSU but NTSC composite output circuitry and NTSC main crystal (I have one too).

BlindGerMan
2nd December 2014, 19:27
The A520 don't give color output because of NTSC (thin) Agnus! Check the number on your (thin) Agnus of your A1000 and google it!
If you replace the (thin) Agnus of your A1000 with the PAL agnus of your A500, 99% will work with the A520!

Well mate, you should know, that it is NOT possible to swap the A1000 Agnus with one of an A500! The one in an A1000 is a DIL-48 Version (8361 for NTSC and 8367 for PAL) an in an A500 you will find any PLCCC-84 Agnus, starting with the 8370/8371 in the early models... ;)

ajk
2nd December 2014, 19:36
I am not sure even if you can have colors, if you connect a 23-pin RGB -> scart cable like an A500 or A1200 on LCD.The A1000 RGB output is perfectly normal and colourfulThe A1000 is older than A500 and A2000 and probably have the same B&W composite out.
No they don't have the same circuitry. The A1000 is better in this regard. And anyway you were doubting that even the RGB output is greyscale, and it certainly isn't - it's the same as with all models. That's what I was responding to.


The A1200 and A600 *which have color composite out* are second generation Amigas.
The early A1000 models has B&W composite *like mine* because of NTSC to PAL porting. This not mean that those computers are damaged.
I have all the Amiga models and for that, I have personal opinion.
Yes, I also have all those models and am not guessing anything here. I just had my A1000 in an Amiga show a little while back and many people were enjoying Lotus 2 and other games in perfect RGB colours :)

So while some A1000s have do an incomplete NTSC-to-PAL conversion, none of them are otherwise stuck in greyscale.

bakoulis
2nd December 2014, 20:04
Being older has nothing to do with it. A1000 was designed to support color composite output, A500 and A2000 was not.

All A1000s have color composite encoder chip (PAL/NTSC switchable but needs different external components for PAL/NTSC). Not getting color is simply caused by Commodore being stupid with early "PAL" A1000 revisions. They have PAL Agnus, 220-240v PSU but NTSC composite output circuitry and NTSC main crystal (I have one too).

You have right!
But I can assure, some early PAL A1000 models have also NTSC Agnus with 220V PSU!
My PAL A1000 had a NTSC thin Agnus with 220V PSU. I had bought one new from Greece 1986!
Later 1999, I had bought one more PAL A1000 (newer model without the extra daughterboard) from UK, but was dead.
So, I had replaced the NTSC Thin Agnus of my Greek A1000, with PAL Thin Agnus of the British A1000 and works. Of course the composite remains B&W as said Toni.
This early models of A1000 has a Thin Agnus instead the (normal) Agnus of A500. This "Thin Agnus" don't display the EHB video mode (64 colors half bright mode).

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So while some A1000s have do an incomplete NTSC-to-PAL conversion, none of them are otherwise stuck in greyscale.

He don't stuck in greyscale. He don't try the RGB port with a monitor, he try the RGB port with an A520 TV modulator. Is very normal to fail.

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Well mate, you should know, that it is NOT possible to swap the A1000 Agnus with one of an A500! The one in an A1000 is a DIL-48 Version (8361 for NTSC and 8367 for PAL) an in an A500 you will find any PLCCC-84 Agnus, starting with the 8370/8371 in the early models... ;)

Is possible with an adaptor I think, like this:
https://www.futurlec.com/PLCC_Adapters.shtml

Anyway he can look for a DIL-48 from a (dead) PAL A1000, as I had did for myself.

BlindGerMan
2nd December 2014, 21:13
The "EHB-Problem" is located in the early Denise! ;)

All A1000 have a thin Agnus in DIL-48!!!!

And none of them have an agnus like the A500...

bakoulis
2nd December 2014, 21:22
The "EHB-Problem" is located in the early Denise! ;)
I had read to AmigaWorld, was because of the early Thin Agnus. Practically, when you want new screen modes, you must use a fatter Agnus.
Anyway I am not hardware expert and definitely I can't know everything, but I am sure the B&W composite of this early model (with the daughterboard like mine) is not a hardware damage but a hardware design fault.
I hope this helps.
:)

BLTCON0
2nd December 2014, 21:53
I had read to AmigaWorld, was because of the early Thin Agnus. Practically, when you want new screen modes, you must use a fatter Agnus.
The 'fatness' of the Agnus in A500 onwards is because it's also a RAM controller. So it has more circuitry and of course more pins (= fat). The first "Fat Agnus", the 8370 (NTSC) / 8371 (PAL), behaves just like the early 'thin' Agnus otherwise (that is, access to 512 KB of chip RAM and timing for OCS-only screenmodes). Although it does correct a small blitter-related 'bug' present in the "thin" Agnus.

FastRobPlus
2nd December 2014, 22:22
I can guarantee that the earliest A1000 units all have composite color. I've had between 10-12 of these, most of them manufactured in early '85. Early European A1000's might be a different story, though I suspect that even the earliest European market A1000's are late enough to have EHB Denise 8362R6 chips.

bakoulis
2nd December 2014, 22:51
I can guarantee that the earliest A1000 units all have composite color. I've had between 10-12 of these, most of them manufactured in early '85. Early European A1000's might be a different story, though I suspect that even the earliest European market A1000's are late enough to have EHB Denise 8362R6 chips.

The early European models was another story of course. Also I can guarantee that my PAL A1000 with the extra daughterboard is early enough to haven't the EHB compatible chipset.
Even with the external 2MB RamBox expansion, the EHB mode at Deluxe Paint is not present!

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@mord
Anyway, the composite (even the color) on Amigas is awful even on the powerful A1200. Same awful quality have the signal from RF TV modulators.
If you want to work and have fun with your Amiga, you need an RGB monitor. Your hardware is not damaged, has designed wrong by the factory. That's all.
:)

mord
3rd December 2014, 00:07
ok so using comp is out,so can I use the rgb connector to go to the yellow video on tv and get color?? or even rgb con to component?? if not how about rgb to scart than using a adaptor scart to av(yellow,red,white rca)??

ajk
3rd December 2014, 05:18
You can convert almost anything into anything with a suitable box, but there is no composite signal directly available on the 23-pin video port so you can't get away with a simple cable.

There are various boards that can convert the video output into composite (eg. this one (http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?13414-Amiga-maniac-s-RGB-gt-S-video-to-VGA-adaptor!-(cheap-flicker-fixer!))), s-video, or even component and VGA (e.g. this one (http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?20468-Solution-for-external-Flicker-fixer)).

It would be preferable not to use composite, because the image quality is quite lousy. It's reasonable in black and white, but the way the colour signal is added in makes the colours very blurry. S-video is pretty good. Direct RGB to the SCART input on a TV or actual Amiga compatible video monitor would be best, since that way there is no meddling with the signal.

Only the Indivision ECS can provide a conversion (to VGA) comparable with RGB, since it does it digitally, but it's a relatively costly solution.

bakoulis
3rd December 2014, 22:01
Only the Indivision ECS can provide a conversion (to VGA) comparable with RGB, since it does it digitally, but it's a relatively costly solution.
I am afraid the Indivision ECS isn't suitable for the A1000, because A1000 is OCS, not ECS. So, for this conversion he needs an external FF.
The best I think is the scart, but Australian TVs maybe don't have scart input. So, the best for him will be the s-video converter.

ajk
3rd December 2014, 22:07
@bakoulis

OCS and ECS are almost the same, the Indivision works fine, just like on an A500. You do need an adapter (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=944) for physical compatibility though.

BLTCON0
6th December 2014, 20:25
@bakoulis
As ajk said, the Indivision ECS is great for the A1000 as well. Only the ECS-specific screenmodes will be missing because of the OCS Agnus in the A1000, so the Indivision will behave as an OCS Denise with VGA output.