CLOSED : Internal DCE ScanMagic ScanDoubler

I don't know much about these units however i know it doubles the output of the amiga to allow the use of a SVGA monitor. I have tested this one with my old Hansol CRT and it picked up the amiga and worked fine. I also tried with my Dell TFT monitor but the TFT wouldn't display the output. The only problem i had was i had to push the VGA connector onto the scandoubler vga port quite hard (however this was only a problem on my A1200 tower, on my desktop a1200 if worked fine). I'm not sure whether the problem is with the monitor's vga cable (as there is a kink in the cable) or the vga port on the scanmagic or even the A1200 itself.
Also I'm not sure about the value of this item so i'm going to ask for £50 and this includes shipping anywhere within Europe. However price is not set in stone if you wish to try haggling.

[attachment=1:j4n3p1xu]1.JPG[/attachment:j4n3p1xu]
[attachment=0:j4n3p1xu]2.JPG[/attachment:j4n3p1xu]

Thanks for looking

Mike

@Scrappy

heys m8y an awesome bit of kit.

I have some intersting info on this monster for you bare with me.

Now this little monster has this write up from amiga.resource.cx

• flicker fixer doubles the horizontal frequency of PAL, ECS and Euro36 screen modes to 31.5 kHz[/*:m:32bueirg]
• removes flicker of interlaced screens[/*:m:32bueirg]
• cannot handle Super72[/*:m:32bueirg]
• connects internally onto the top of the Lisa chip[/*:m:32bueirg]
• attaches with a ribbon cable to the external DB23 to HD15 VGA adapter [/*:m:32bueirg]

from my examinations of several of these models, the external connector takes the horizonal and vertical sync from the 23pin Amiga Video Port, you can source these from the Alice chip, as later models of these products have an internal connector for this.

now, personally I would like to test that Super 72 if its passed through or not as latter version are, so if the firmware on the chip is there it may well pass Super 72 mode through :)

<-- what he said lol
Hey Zetr0,

I'm not at all sure about super72, what it is or anything about it. I just know that i had this little baby connected over the top of the lisa chip on both my 1200 tower and my 1200 desktop and it allowed me to use the crt monitor i have that it wouldnt let me use before i installed this.

Mike

Heys Mike,

no worries my friend, its a good bit of kit, whom gets it I do envy ;)

For some more information on Super 72;-

it is a double pal screen mode than is outputted at 31khz, so you can infact use your workbench in an aproximate 31khz mode on a CRT / TFT that can sync to that frequency.

the screen size is in 800x600 but does not have an overscan.

Hello Scrappysphinx,
I am interested by the scandoubler
I send you a PM,

Almasis

pm replied to and deal is hopefully being sorted.
will update when hear back from almasis

Mike

almasis has retracted interest in the scandoubler so its up for sale again.

I am interrested in this one!

I can pay with PayPal or any way you like.
PM me for details and we can take it from there.

payment recieved and item will be sent tomorrow

Hi,

I have tried the Scandouble with zero success here.... Nothing comes through actually... black screen, no flicker, no nothing.

I have read that these came in two versions, one mounted on the Lisa Chip (closest to the back on my revision of the A1200 motherboard), and one on the Alice Chip... which is similar in size and are located a little more away from the rear...

Is it possible that the version you sold is a Alice mounted version? And I need to relocate it?

I am a bit scared to try, since if it is a Lisa Version, what will happend if I mount it on Alice?
If it is a Alice version, hehe.. well then we can presume it at least did not do any harm to Lisa connecting it wrong ;)

The cable length seems to be long enough to be mounted on Alice btw... so there were no indications for which version there....

H.SaX

@Experiment IV

Do NOT under any circumstances connect this to ALICE. you will damage the A1200 & the Scandoubler.

Have you piggy backed & connected the 23pin video connector to the back of the A1200 too, it needs this to get the sync signals. ?

Some versions were indeed sold with an Alice Adapter instead of the 23pin video port connector in order to btain those necessary sync signals.
LISA provides the A1200's actual Display output in Digital form which your scandoubler fits over & carries out it's own processing to produce an analogue VGA output.

I have been told by quite a few people that you may need a good firm push to "click" the adapter on to LISA & obtain proper contact.

If you are still having problems, don't take risks if you are not sure, come back to this thread & we will do what we can to help.

TC :mrgreen:

Thanks for a very quick reply!

I managed in the minutes before you reply to open the A1200, refit with an extra push (which i actually think was not neccessary) and to remount the case again and try.

And i have found the problem to be the 23->VGA interface thingy. Most of the time when i connect the VGA cable it shows nothing, but when i was twitching it today screen flickered and voila, there was a picture :)

Investingating more shows a loose VGA connector, which i have to solder. No crisis here anymore, things are solvable. Just need to pry open the interface in the back in order to solder it and we are up and running again.

Will keep you posted.

H,SaX

Excellent News

I really am glad you didn't try & fit it to ALICE :D

Regards
TC :mrgreen:

ExperimentIV,

I did mention above that i had a problem with wiggling the connector and wasn't sure which connector had theproblem, the monitor, the scandoubler or the 23 pin video port but please let me know how you get on and if your struggle and decide you've had enough i'd be happy for you to return it for refund.

Mike

The interface thingy must have been from a batch which was seriously poorly made.
I had to resolder almost ALL points since they were busted.

But now we have scandoubling :)

And somewhat flickerfixing, but that i must say is not at all perfect.
I can see the extra ram for flicker fixing is installed on the piggy back but lacing is still visible.

Scandoubling appears for most resoultions, but not all. Some still come through as 15Khz, but only a few ones.
The colors are remarkably more dull btw... and there is vertical "lines" in the color... they all seems to have different shades of grey and is repeated over the screen. But i think i have read somewhere, that this is the nature of these scandoublers?

My 24" widescreen LCD is however happy to show Amiga desktop now, so all seems to work out good.

Would love to get your experience with this unit tho, in order to see if my expectations from performance is resonable :)

H.SaX

H Sax, i have to be honest i had not used this scandoubler. I recieved it in a box of amiga items i purchased. I tested it to see if it worked then offered it for sale. The only thing i can say is if you look at post two of this thread Zetr0 states this item as being an excellent bit of kit. I have also seen a few reviews over at EAB where there were mixed feelings.
But i'm glad you've got it going ok.

Mike

Mike,

After testing over a couple of days, i get certain that there is something wrong with the unit. :(
Colors are unstable, sometimes red, some times pink... Sometimes picture is gone, and some times it is there...

It has all the time had a repetive pattern of grey lines "over" the graphics, and this never goes away.

So I am looking for a return of the item if you dont mind?

Heop for the best here... that we can work something out.
H.SaX

Hey H.Sax, i'm always fair and of course you can return for refund.
I'll pm my address details and as soon as i recieve the item i will refund your money via paypal.
Hope there are no hard feelings. :D

Mike

@SS

Mike,
If you would like me to test the unit out for you once returned & make sure it is functioning correctly feel free to send it on.

Best Wishes
TC :wink:

No hard feelings here mate!

I thank you for the refund offer, it is always excellent to deal with honest people!

I will wrap the board and mail it, for you to refund when you receive the parcel :)

H.SaX

i have one of these and I must say I'm very pleased with it.
Scrappy, could you send me the unit? i had to repair mine you see, so i'd like to take a look at yours and do a comparison

Cheers, JuvUK

You can get sparklies & artifacts if you dont press those Sockets all the way down on the Chips. The faces of the socket will touch the Mobo when on properly. If not on properly, you can see anomalies. I have one & saw this very thing for incorrect fitting.

Best to all,

Kin

@ExperimentIV

Scan doubler recieved back today and your paypal payment has been refunded.
Sorry and hope we can still trade again sometime in the future.

Thanks

Mike

**UPDATE**

I have been running this scandoubler all nght with a Hansol CRT monitor and a KVM switch to switch between PC and Amiga and i have found no issues with it. Everything seems to be displayed fine.

I have included a pic of the desktop and also one of Deluxe Music Running

[attachment=1:khrxhbjf]scan1.JPG[/attachment:khrxhbjf]

[attachment=0:khrxhbjf]scan2.JPG[/attachment:khrxhbjf]

If you have any information on how i may recreate the problems you had ExperimentIV i'd be happy to know.

@TC & JuvUK, thanks for the kind offers but i am unable to find a problem as of yet and will wait for information from ExperimentIV

Thanks again

Mike

I'm sure the grey "vertical lines" are due to the LCD's "clock" setting not matching the signal it was receiving from the scandoubler, this is no fault of the ScanMagic but of an LCD not configured/unable to display the mode 100% correctly. Most scandoublers do this with LCDs, while CRTs will look perfect.

The rest of it sounds like dirty/poor connections at the Lisa. I wonder what type of Lisa was in his machine, the HP ones seemed harder to fit correctly.

If it comes up for re-sale I would be interested, obviously after anyone else that has an interest.

@tone007, thanks for your input. The machine i am using it in now has a cbm commodore lisa chip however i did also try in my Escom HP Lisa and it seems to function fine in that machine too.

@imnogeek, as far as i'm aware JuvUK and TheCorfiot were only offering help and were not interested in buying the unit. That said i will be offering up for sale again just as soon as i am 100% that it is fully functional as i am still working towards to my indivision aga (whenever Amigakit get them back in stock!)
I am just awaiting more info from ExperimentIV to see if there was anything specific he can point me to before i re-offer to all.

Mike

hiya,
i found that by adjusting my samsungs sync settings i could greatly reduce the "banding" running down the screen, also i could not notice the "banding" at all in games, just on the workbench screen, but having said that even with the "banding" the screen looks much better than my TV ever did ;o)

cheers, JuvUK

Totally agree with Tone

Even the IndivisionAGA performs better with a CRT...

TC :wink:

Good to hear that it is on order!

Also, indeed my A1200 has a HP Lisa chip.

I did really put it on hard... to the virge of getting scared i broke it.
I did get a "clik" as a verify that it did clip on, and there were no visible opening between the chip holder on the piggyback and the motherboard. At least not as far as i could see.

I have a couple of LCD's which i tested it on, and they both produced this scanlines and dull colors.
But also sometimes missing colors or having colors floating over the screen.

Is it possible that i did not get it to fit?
It went on and off quite a few times, and i really tried my best to make it clip on.

Anyway, update from me here :)

H.SaX

Since more info for my problem was requested, i'll add my experiences with the card :)

I just want to express my very positive experience with scrappyspinx in this, and it will INDEED encourage me to do trade in the future with him!

Here is my experience with this item on my HP Lisa'fied mainboard:

Initial testing revealed no picture at all, but a little fiddle with the VGA connector made piccie come and go on the screen. So off went the rear converter unit and I cut the silicone keeping the two plates on it to get them apart. A quick dremel wirebrushing brushed the silione of the cirquit board where the 23 and VGA connector is soldered. Investigations showed numerous solderpoints broken. In general i would say the soldering from factory was faulty. I am an electronic engineer and deem myself able to see a good soldering or not...

A resolder of all points made picture appear on screen :)

Initially was an instant reaction to very dull colors. And a rather strong repetitive pattern og vertical lines on my LCD. This was similar on my SAMSUNG syncmaster 2443bw and my Medion LCD screen. (The Medion _is_ able to sync to ALL Amiga resolutions btw, even if showing a onscreen info that the frequency is to low)

I also went through the ideas that if was not clipped on properly... so I tried quite a lot to put it on and take it off to fix it. I did get a "clic" when putting it on, but not a "CLICK!!" to say it like this. I have never put these units on before, and have nothing to compare with.

As I read in this thread, that HP Lisa's is not at easy to mount on. And I do have a HP Lisa. Another thing is that if I kept my finger on the top-left most chip on the piggyback board, colors started to float, with pink and blue areas running over the screen. Almost like odd-fashioned plasma from demos if you get what i mean. The last time of testing for me, one color was missing, so the picture did show only greens and blues.

All this now afterwards points to that did not connect it properly... or that my mainboard does not hold Lisa expanderboards very well... and this is a wee bit worrying... since I wish to add a gfx card to fix flicker and scanddoubling in order to use an ordinary vga monitor.

And really, applying more pressure than i did... sounds scary indeed :)

Anyway, thanks for helping out, even if it looks like I did not connect it properly

H.SaX

One quick last note:

Using the Commodore 23 to VGA converter (http://www.katmandew.com/images/Amiga/V ... dapter.jpg) which came with my 1942 monitor, on the video port on the back of my A1200 works perfectly for all resolutions on the Medion. That is after running the VGAOnly utility to get 30khz output.

No repetitive colors, xtal sharp pixels and clear and vivid colors.

Using Multisync mode 640x480 on my Samsung also shows the same perfect picture.

The Samsung can show only a few resolutions tho, even if the Medion can show all.

H.SaX

H.Sax, i thank you for your feedback and i'm happy to deal with you again in the future. As far as i can see the unit is working fine on my cbm commodore Lisa chip and i also tested on my Escom HP Lisa chip.
As previous posts suggest it may have been that it wasn't compatible with the LCD's used, it may have been the scandoubler itself and i can only apologise that it didn't work out for you.
As far as i can see the unit is now in full working condition and i'm happy to offer to imnogeek if he's still interested.
PM Sent to imnogeek

Mike

P.S. H.Sax as been very understanding and a complete pleasure to deal with throughout and i would not hesitate to deal with again.

I have recieved the scandoubler today and am afraid I get the same vertical lines on my TFT.

/tone007 said

Quote:

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I'm sure the grey "vertical lines" are due to the LCD's "clock" setting not matching the signal it was receiving from the scandoubler, this is no fault of the ScanMagic but of an LCD not configured/unable to display the mode 100% correctly. Most scandoublers do this with LCDs, while CRTs will look perfect.

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I think tone007 is about right as Scrappy has tested it on a crt with no problems


oh well, may flog the miggy too now as I am not changing my new 24" TFT and I need the space on my desk. :(

& here lie the Limitations of TFT against the more Traditional CRT.

It is still evident on todays Higher end Gaming TFT's when running 32 x Anti Ailiasing. Banding is clearly evident even in games as late as F.E.A.R. 2. - Put the same settings on a CRT & the Banding is gone.

Meantime, think another equation & go & spend £1000 on a Professional TFT so it has a bigger Colour Gamut to call from, thereby killing the the Banding.....

It's like 24Bit on an Amiga Desktop & 24Bit on a Pee Cee!

The Pee Cee is banded to bit's & then they give you 32Bit which still bands on a CRT without A.A @ 32 x

The Pee Cee Industry has taken the mickey for years & the Amiga Exposed it years ago!

Kin

*edit* I changed your title Accordingly Mike. I would guess you don't mind & I am thinking we need to move this thread elsewhere!?.

I'd appreciate your feelings on this matter,

Best Wishes,

Charlie

@all,

My personal experience with this unit is as follows:

This was found in a tower i purchased off someone. It wasn't mentioned in the advert so it was a complete surprise.
I was hoping to replace the CM8833 monitor i had on the desk with one monitor and a KVM switch for the Amiga & PC so i decided to try it with my Dell TFT screen. The TFT said "cannot display this video mode". I then tried it with a Hansol CRT monitor and it displayed the video fine.
The 1 thing i did notice is that when i use the older CM8833 monitor the copper background used in ClassicWB was displayed as one background where as when i used the scandoubler and the CRT monitor it was seperated into horizontal bands however every app and game i tried displayed correctly so i didn't see it as an issue. I believe this is something to do with the scandoubler not supporting 24bit or something to that effect (not sure about bit graphic stuff just going by some comments by Alexh over at EAB).

@imnogeek, as with ExperimentIV i am always fair so if its no good to your and you would like to return it to me i will of course offer full refund.

Mike

I see where you're going with this Mike. :wink:

Thanks for the feedback!

rkauer might have some usefull input on this one! :)

Kin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scrappysphinx

The 1 thing i did notice is that when i use the older CM8833 monitor the copper background used in ClassicWB was displayed as one background where as when i used the scandoubler and the CRT monitor it was seperated into horizontal bands however every app and game i tried displayed correctly so i didn't see it as an issue. I believe this is something to do with the scandoubler not supporting 24bit or something to that effect (not sure about bit graphic stuff just going by some comments by Alexh over at EAB).

---

That's *EXACTLY* the problem with "16bit only" scan doublers. They will clip low bits, which means you don't get the "finer" color detail (the colors between those bands). This is absolutely normal for these scan doublers and the case of gradients is the worse-case scenario for these devices. Video games, and especially OCS/ECS will have 0 problems. AGA stuff and demos will have problems, again, especially if they use gradients or smooth shades.

@DA9000 : correct.

The AGA palette is 8 bits for R, G & B values (hence 24 bits).

The problem is: the chip used on almost all scandoublers (but Amber and PGA Indivision) are 16 bits. So they had to opt for using two or three chips (expensive a lot!) or ignore the least significant bits of data on each colour.

So all developers choose the very same path: 5 bits for Red and Blue and 6 bits for Green (to reduce moireé effect).

The effect of the 16 bits on 24 bits screens are noticeable when copper screens are shown.

@scrappysphinx

Quote:

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as with ExperimentIV i am always fair so if its no good to your and you would like to return it to me i will of course offer full refund.

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I will take you up on that if you don't mind, please make sure you deduct the postage you have paid from the refund as it is not your fault and I don't want you out of pocket.

@all
My apologies for such a negative post above, I was a bit P***ed off after another long day and probably not in the best frame of mind to post anything.
I do feel gutted with this as I have been looking forward to clearing out the acorn monitor I use for the miggy and using my TFT both for space reasons and to be able to use better resolutions on the miggy.

If it is of any interest I had distinct vertical bands accross the whole screen at about 1cm apart, these bands were either closer or further apart as I tried various other screen modes.
I did not try any apps or games, I was using a standard, plain WB screen.

The TFT I have is a 24" Wide screen Benq Senseye Photo

Quote:

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Overview: G2400WD 24" Wide TFT TN+Film/ 1920 x 1200 (WUXGA Full-HD 1080p)/ 250 cd/m²/ 1000:1/ 5ms (2ms GTG) Senseye+Photo Technology BenQ’s exclusive Senseye technology gives you preset Dynamic Movie Photo—that provide instant optimized settings for different usage scenarios. Senseye+Photo is an enhanced version that adds support for the industry-standard sRGB color space allowing you to obtain consistent results when you view and manipulate images on monitor and on other sRGB-compliant devices. Dynamic Contrast Technology The G2400WD & G2400WAD with an exceptional 4000:1 dynamic contrast technology; it automatically adjusts backlight to optimize light levels for each and every scene. 4000:1 dynamic contrast flawlessly renders dark details making movies and video games more enjoyable. Superior response time With its speedy 5ms response time give the performance needed for any display application. Even fast-moving dynamic video is rendered with smooth fluid motion and no ghosting or other artifacts for a beautifully realistic viewing experience. Used with a notebook the G2400WD and G2400WAD can enhance your productivity by expanding the available workspace through their extended desktop feature. You can easily view multiple documents at once or keep track of two projects simultaneously allowing you to work more efficiently. Energy Star-certified This product complies with ENERGY STAR Program Requirements for Computer Monitors. Version 4.0. Specification: Display Response time 5 ms Display brightness 250 cd/m² Contrast ratio (typical) 1000:1 Display diagonal 24 " Display TFT TN+Film Number of colours 16.7 M Pixel pitch 0.270 x 0.270 mm Horizontal scan range 31 - 94 KHz Vertical scan range 50 - 85 Hz Viewing angle horizontal 160 ° Viewing angle vertical 160 ° Display viewable area HxV 518.5 x 324 mm Display sRGB Y HDCP Y Disp

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Finally I would like to echo a couple of things that have already been said in the above posts..
-Scrappysphinx is a good chap, he is honest and can be trusted. I would not want any of this to reflect on him.
-IMO the scandoubler is in good working order as has been shown by Scrappy, it is not best suited to some TFT panels, mine and ExperimentIV's for starters.

Gary

Hi scrappy dooode!
can i buy the scandoubler please m8y, i know these work well with my lcd as i already have one (want another one for the wifes A1200) let me know the price inc postage if you still want it sell it m8y

cheers, JuvUK

That scandoubler is quite the world traveller.

Yep, she's being passed around like a hooker at a Premiership footballer's birthday party.

LOL!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by r0jaws

Yep, she's being passed around like a hooker at a Premiership footballer's birthday party.

---

lol classy! :wink:

LOL!

@rkaeur:

Great explanation mate! :-)

@rkauer & da9000, thanks guys for the great explanations.

@JuvUK & imnogeek, if you would like the scandoubler then the price will be £50 as before and that includes p&p.
If i can get imnogeek to post it on to you and you pay him the money then it will save a lot on postage back and fourth.
imnogeek gets his refund, JuvUK gets the scandoubler and everyone is hopefully happy lol
If this is ok with you guys then please pm between yourselfs and arrange payment and postage and we can all leave feedback for one another. Again i can only apologise it hasn't worked out for you imnogeek.

As another possible scandoubler, has anyone had any experience with this sort of unit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0318558142

It claims to be a high quality unit, but it's external, and it's from eBay.

Thanks!

LOL too! :mrgreen:

@ SS

Better luck with JuvUK m8y. - I Spect you'll be okay as he don't mind ear-wax, so a few stripes aint gunno hurt! :lol:

Kin