Mods - need help with a sale gone sour

User2921

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Hi mods,

I sold some items to another amibay member and shipped the items overseas. They arrived damaged and the buyer was unhappy. I received a message saying this, and I responded asking the buyer if he made an insurance claim. The buyer said he'd email me photographs of the damage to the items and I said I would send copies of the insurance information, even though it's on the physical shipping box itself as per USPS rules.

I never received any pictures or heard about any insurance claims, instead in under 24 hours the buyer has demanded a refund via paypal. Please advise. I was prepared to do what needed to be done to make things right (mail separate case parts, replace what was damaged). What recourse do I have?

I prefer not to discuss user names with matters like this publicly and would prefer the buyer give me a chance to make things right before demanding refunds. I will say that we initially agreed to split shipping costs as well, yet I never received my portion of shipping costs (basically I paid ALL shipping costs).

I'm refuting the claim on Paypal for now - in matters like this, typically the seller has a chance to make things right and continue to refute. I will choose to do this to the ends of the earth if necessary since I feel I wasn't treated fairly.
 
Remember, it's almost always the sender that has to file a claim on insurance.

Not sure what sort of package it was, or where it was sent, but have you check here:-

https://www.usps.com/ship/file-insurance-claims.htm

Looks like mostly it's the sender that has to claim, although, some types here allow claims by either party...

Paypal, as long as it was a payment for a SALE (not gift) will want the recipient of the item to return it (paid by them) to you and they will always side with the buyer for damaged goods... They will then seek to settle the account with you. There aren't very many options unfortunately, but the item will have to be returned to you before they will refund.
 
Hi mods,

I never received any pictures or heard about any insurance claims, instead in under 24 hours the buyer has demanded a refund via paypal. Please advise. I was prepared to do what needed to be done to make things right (mail separate case parts, replace what was damaged). What recourse do I have?

Buyer has got to send the photos first, without that, he can't make any claim whatsoever.
 
and they will always side with the buyer for damaged goods...

This isn't always true, but it's most likely they'll side with the buyer. Your best approach is to be open and honest with PayPal and make sure they understand your side of the case.

(y)
 
Sorry to hear this mate, I'm really seriously considering not sending anything overseas. These buyers who pressure us to send overseas and then want everything their way when things go wrong are starting to rattle my cage.

Normally the seller is liable for the insurance claims but the buyer has to provide the evidence, PayPal will be aware of this. Also normally the buyer is responsible for returning the item to you before you are required to give a refund so I would be surprised if PayPal would just take the money although I know PayPal do often side with the buyer sadly.

My advice is to keep all communication and forward any info you can onto PayPal that will help your case.

It's even possible that the buyer in this case is trying to scam you into refunding so they can get a free item. Sadly it happens a lot on the other bay and I'm suspicious that these characters are now darkening our doorstep here at Amibay (n)

Good luck & don't give in although if he provides you with the Photo's it is up to you to raise the claim, beware there could be time limits. In my recent case I had only 24hrs after delivery to notify the courier of Damage! I raised the claim right away pending the pics which I forwarded on the next day once I'd received them.

All the best,

Steve.
 
Also, if you'd like the staff to help you out with the case, please can you PM me a link to the trade thread and I'll take it up for discussion with the rest of the staff.

(y)
 
Also, if you'd like the staff to help you out with the case, please can you PM me a link to the trade thread and I'll take it up for discussion with the rest of the staff.

(y)

+1

I'd certainly advise this (y)
 
Thanks for all the help guys. I'm going to give the buyer a chance to do the right thing before I escalate it to the mods with specific transaction and member details. :)
 
and they will always side with the buyer for damaged goods...

This isn't always true, but it's most likely they'll side with the buyer. Your best approach is to be open and honest with PayPal and make sure they understand your side of the case.

(y)


Sorry mate, but I can't agree with you there.

The laws on distance selling dictate that they have to side with the buyer if an item, that was described as working, turns up either internally or externally damaged.

Whether they then actually offer a refund is a different matter, as the buyer then has to jump through pre-determined hoops to 'earn' it.

1. They must be able to prove that the item was described as working (sold as seen is rubbish - this is distance selling; you cannot hide behind 'sold as seen'), along with "item is xx years old - no warranties are offered" it must still work when it is received...

2. They must be willing to return the item with all accessories received with it within 10 days of notification to do so (at their own cost).

3. They must prove that the item was sent back to the seller (via a photo after postage is affixed) or receipt from a postal office/courier.

Even damage obviously having been done during shipping is seen as a 'failure' of the distance selling contract. They will want the item returned and for the seller to recoup the losses from the courier.
The only time this isn't the case is when the seller & buyer agree to some other agreement and the buyer then closes the claim action. Once this is opened, other than giving 'time-related' goals that the buyer MUST adhere to, they are obliged to follow it through and offer a refund.

It is possible for Paypal to lose out - in extreme circumstances if, after giving the seller a refund, Paypal's original judgement against the buyer can be overturned - this way both the buyer and seller receive refunds.

Sadly, all that can be done is try to communicate with the buyer and let paypal know what you have done to rectify things.

They always take the 'easy' way out and find against the seller - it is only AFTER a refund has been given that Paypal are able to look into the case - until then, within the case itself, the 'conversation' is between you and the buyer - Paypal will not look into it until it is closed. Seems backwards to me, but it's that way they play it, I'm afraid... :(

Good luck with it...
 
Sorry mate, but I can't agree with you there.

The laws on distance selling dictate that they have to side with the buyer if an item, that was described as working, turns up either internally or externally damaged.

Distance Selling Regulations don't apply to private sales, only to businesses. PayPal usually side with the buyer, but I've seen cases where they didn't.
 
Mods - need help with a sale gone sour

OK fair point - so we're not talking about the strict DSR's here but...


Buyer Protection
If an eligible item that you’ve bought online doesn’t arrive, or doesn’t match the seller’s description, our Buyer Protection will reimburse you for the full amount of the item plus postage and packaging costs. Buyer Protection covers all your online purchases, on eBay or on any other website, when you use PayPal. It also covers you when you make a payment on our website.

What’s an eligible item? Only physical goods that can be posted and aren’t prohibited by law are covered. Here are a few examples of situations where an item doesn’t match the seller’s description: you bought a book and got a DVD, you bought a new item but got something that was used, you bought 3 items but only got 2, the item was damaged during delivery, the item is missing major parts (that the seller didn’t disclose), or you purchased an authentic brand but got a fake instead. If the seller has accurately described an item, but you’re just not happy with it, that doesn’t qualify for Buyer Protection.
 
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As I say, they usually side with the buyer, but I've known them side with a seller on at least one occasion, so it can happen. Usually in cases where the buyer has been unreasonable in their demands.

And don't forget that PayPal isn't the be-all and end-all of the matter. Even if they rule against you, it's possible to pursue the matter through legal channels.

But hopefully it won't come to that. Wherever possible, we'd far rather see amicable arrangement. And to the OP, as I said earlier, once you're ready, PM me the details of the transaction and we'll step in and help out as best we can.

(y)
 
This is exactly why I will not sell anything with fees paid etc, insisting on gift is the only option to protect yourself. If the buyer doesn't like it he is free to go somewhere else for what he wants. Didn't we have a big thread on that subject not so long ago?
 
Yes ACID, we did ;)

And situations like this are the exact reason why I only pay via normal paypal and pay the fees myself. Not that I don't trust anyone (although that Zetr0 is a bit of a strange one ;)) but I like to know that there is some comeback if I need it.

Of course, if people packaged things properly in the first place, 99% of these situations would never occur.
 
As has been mentioned, I keep within the confines of uk only, even if its just an a600 rom chip i sold last year.

I still got complaints for not shipping abroad, even though i had "uk only" on the sale :dry:

A couple of years back when i first sailed over here to amibay from the distant valleys, i bought from trusted sellers who were abroad such as portarinos and tbtorro and they were fine. But then you can choose the sellers you wish to purchase from more easily than the buyers of your item... overall its better for my blood pressure if my transactions are within uk (y)
 
You can have exactly the same problem in the UK...

I had two problems here on Amibay :
1) I have paid as gift via Paypal a Fastata, the seller never sent the item... (and other items of other good Amibayers)
2) I never received a 060 rev6 (from France to France).

I will NEVER pay as gift again even if it is the rarest thing I ever saw (and want).

Amibay will not have anymore interest for me if people reacts like that. We all have local forums where we can trade or the evilbay. I like the melting pot here...

@esc : hope you will find a good solution mate.
 
Don't blame the DSA, blame the consumer credit act which makes the financer responsible for stuff paid for with credit (ie a credit card) in pretty much every case apart from the consumer acting fraudulently. That's a gross oversimplification, but it'll do. The credit card company then passes that onto the merchant acquirer, who passes it onto the merchant. Paypal. Who then get the money back from the seller.

Yes it sucks, and this is why paypal gift is the only way to go when sending stuff internationally. Chargeback rules are even more complex, and to be honest should point a little more in the favour of the seller, but unless there's a 3D secure transaction or a signature on a piece of paper it's a nightmare.
 
Sorry to hear this mate, I'm really seriously considering not sending anything overseas. These buyers who pressure us to send overseas and then want everything their way when things go wrong are starting to rattle my cage.

This is the ONLY reason it's not nice to send overseas for me. even before i sacked of Feebay i had issues sending overseas for this reason. I bought an item from Amibay and the box it arrived in looked like the seller had put it into a woodchipper before putting the item inside to send to me... it all worked fine so i didnt need to raise an issue but it can be the case that items are not packaged up the right way. I hope the seller in this case gets a fair deal and best of luck to him. as for PayPal, Feebay own them now so it wont be long before i leave that behind too. still involved with the police due to Paypal siding with the wrong person. idiots.
 
Yes it sucks, and this is why paypal gift is the only way to go when sending stuff internationally.
PayPal gift doesn't prevent the buyer from getting their money back if the deal goes sour, as long as it was funded from the credit card.
 
At the end of the day we can go back and forth saying, should pay gift, shouldn't pay gift, this & that. The fact still remains a deal can go sour and if either side is not willing to cooperate you're going to have a dispute.

As buyers and sellers there many ways we can protect out selves to limit the risk, but we have to accept selling and buying is always going to be some risk involved, you can limit it by not sending overseas of you can limit it by only trading with people that have a high feedback but sooner or later something can and usually will go wrong.

I'm just glad we have Amibay here who have impartial staff whop will do their best to help, mostly we have a great community here who can be trusted and Ive certainly had a lot less trouble here than the other bay.

I'll continue to send oversea's but I've put a disclaimer in my threads now, I know this wont protect me if the buyer pays goods or uses a credit card but hopefully it'll be enough to deter the bad apples as normally they just want to get their scam money with the least amount of hassle.

So when all is said and done, you can better protect yourself but in doing that you limit your chances of trading and finding & selling the items you want, something else to bare in mind ;)
 
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