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Thread: MOS SID 6581 100% tested

  1. #61
    Inactive Member Flemming's Avatar
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    So, here is some observation from me. This is solely for the sake of interest on my part... Everybody, please do not freak out :P

    The two MOS6581R4 i bought does not have any 'dimples' (ejector pin markings) on the top side they are practically flat/smooth (besides the notch which indicates chip orientation). This usually indicates that the chips have been sanded down and remarked. I thought i'd do some measuring on the height of the chips:

    - MOS8580R5 (with dimples): 3,81mm
    - MOS6581R4 (no dimples): 3,78mm

    Of all the SID chips i have (i do have a few) these two 6581R4 are the only ones with no dimples, and they are slimmer than my other SIDs

    Another strong indicator is their datecode: '3686', which they both have. Having several chips with similar datecode is usually very lucky. But then a friend linked me to this site ( http://kevtris.org/Projects/sid/remarked_sids.html ). The guy who owns that site obviously bought a handfull of 6581R4 with exactly the same datecode as mine - and he easily identifies them as being remarked.

    Just to clarify: I am not making any accusations! No refunds, returns or anything like that! I am merely investigating and asking questions out of interest. That being said, if the chips are remarked, they should be sold as such, and it should be reflected in the price, so a partial refund might be in order.

    I would like to hear from other buyers of the 6581R4 type:

    - Is your datecode identical to mine (MOS6581R4 3686)?
    - Does the thickness/height of the chip match the height of your other SIDs?
    - Dimples or no dimples?

    Here is a photo of the two 6581R4 (no dimples) along with the 8580R5 (yes dimples)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And here is a photo from Stone Oakvalley's site, where the dimples are very obvious and the printing is different from the ones above

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Flemming; 22nd May 2015 at 08:03.

  2. #62
    mic72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flemming View Post
    So, here is some observation from me. This is solely for the sake of interest on my part... Everybody, please do not freak out :P
    This usually indicates that the chips have been sanded down and remarked. I thought i'd do some measuring on the height of the chips:

    Another strong indicator is their datecode: '3686', which they both have. Having several chips with similar datecode is usually very lucky. But then a friend linked me to this site ( http://kevtris.org/Projects/sid/remarked_sids.html ). The guy who owns that site obviously bought a handfull of 6581R4 with exactly the same datecode as mine - and he easily identifies them as being remarked.
    Sorry... "please do not freak out :P" - but what you see is bullshit or just half-knowledge. I have >1000 SIDs here! And of course many of them have identical date codes.
    By coincidence C= produced more than one SID per week I was told from a reliable source.
    If you buy SIDs in the usual antistatic rods (like I did) they will almost always have the same date code.
    And even better: C= didn't produce SIDs every week but in batches. That means: Certain date codes even do not exist on SIDs at all...

    And now even worse: C= packaged their chips in different factories - so there even exist different cases/housing:

    http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/das_SID.jpg
    http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/das_SID2.jpg

    There are two strong indicators for remarked chips: New printing (e.g. clear white or grey/brown) and the bottom side with no printing.
    Please take a picture of the bottom site of the chips I've sent to you and post it here! (However the couterfeits got better... bottom printing occurs now too: But it's perfectly white. Just too perfect!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flemming View Post
    Just to clarify: I am not making any accusations! No refunds, returns or anything like that! I am merely investigating and asking questions out of interest. That being said, if the chips are remarked, they should be sold as such, and it should be reflected in the price, so a partial refund might be in order.

    Here is a photo of the two 6581R4 (no dimples) along with the 8580R5 (yes dimples)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20150522_082711.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	105.6 KB 
ID:	88664
    I'd happy to give a refund... just send all the SIDs back to me and we'll both be much happier!
    I'm sure there will be others who do not question authenticity of the chips!


    ps: All SIDs packaged on the Phillipines are missing the dimples! Maybe C= bought fakes in the 80s already????
    pps: If you are solely interested in the matters you shouldn't use suggestive sentences like "strong indicator" etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    More pictures from SIDs packaged on the Phillipines or just missing the dimples:

    https://nuxx.net/gallery/d/43374-9/IMG_2334.JPG

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8580R5_USA.jpg

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...20px-6582A.jpg

    http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/1...954/6581R4.jpg


    Even PLA were produced in different factories:

    http://www.nightfallcrew.com/wp-cont...4/img_3123.jpg

    Also no dimples...
    Last edited by mic72; 22nd May 2015 at 08:48.

  3. #63
    Inactive Member Flemming's Avatar
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    I just got a notice that i got a 'negative rating' It says: "Makes false accusations and draws wrong conclusions!". That is not a reting. It is a personal statement!

    To be clear, i did not make any accusations! You might think that my conclusions are wrong, but that has no impact on our trade at all - You got the money, and i got the goods. No problems Now i'm just asking questions, and i even do it in a polite way. I'm not sure why you come at me in such an aggressive way, again. Especially when your goods are fine.

    Just to be clear, the picture you link does not say anything about the chips being true or false.

    So i guess a lot of people experienced SID chips in their C64 with no dimples. Maybe someone could verify this for me?

  4. #64
    mic72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flemming View Post
    Just to be clear, the picture you link does not say anything about the chips being true or false.
    So i guess a lot of people experienced SID chips in their C64 with no dimples. Maybe someone could verify this for me?
    The picture does not say anything but YOU do: "... a strong indicator ..." implies that these chips must be remarked (which is 100% wrong!).

    So please do me a favour: Return the SIDs and buy them somewhere else! I will send refund for the chips and postage.

    ps: Taking the measures of two different kind of chips packaged at different times and in different factories as an indicator
    is like comparing two cars of the same brand but one before and the other after facelift... OMG

    pps: I gave a negative rating because the way you're discussing the matters will definitely have an impact on my sales. I don't care too much because I do not earn money with the SIDs (just getting rid of excessive stock bought over the years). But other sellers might care!

    ppps: The fake chips at kevtris site have the same date code as your chips but obviously a different package! Did you ever consider that the guys faking SIDs took a real SOD as a blueprint for their fake printing? Take a look at the bottom printing: I bet it's different! (Fakes have same printing on top AND bottom).
    Last edited by mic72; 22nd May 2015 at 11:26.

  5. #65
    Inactive Member Flemming's Avatar
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    First, i think the impact on your sale will be mostly from the aggressive way you come at me, just for asking simple questions! If i were wrong and you were right, then you had no worries and no reason to get angry with me in the first place.

    I didn't give you a negative rating of any sorts. I am asking questions to clarify. A natural way to handle this would be to talk about it, but you choose to attack me... you did this once before, when i asked a question via PM, and you felt the need to go and post in this thread, issue refunds i never asked for. So this time i thought "let's just have an open talk about this from the start". Now the response is even more aggressive, and i even got a negative rating

    Second, i must say that i am very sorry, for this http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php...l=1#post696290

    I spoke to a real SID guru who told me to test thoroughly once more, and this was what i found out:

    Sid nr 1 (6581R4) Listen: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wv21d7f0zc...cord1.mp3?dl=0
    Dead filter. Let it get past the intro and you will hear the volume dissapear as soon as the filter is turned on. Later in the tune you can hear the filter click like crazy every time it is turned on/off.

    Sid nr 2 (6581R4) Listen: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h43dympqx0...cord2.mp3?dl=0
    This one plays just fine, also filter. But it does not sound like an R4. It sounds like an R2.

    To compare, here are links for SOASC:

    SOASC (6581R4) Listen: http://www.se2a1.net/soasc/dl.php?d=..._MOS6581R4.mp3
    SOASC (6581R2) Listen: http://www.se2a1.net/soasc/dl.php?d=..._MOS6581R2.mp3

    The R2 @ SOASC sounds exactly like the R4 i got from you.

    Anyways, even if the chips are from same country, same factory, same datecode and everything, they do not sound alike. Not even if the filter worked. That is odd, i think.

    These chips are clearly pulled, both of them. They have even had their pins re-tinned to make them look good. If they were put in an anti static tube afterwards i don't know, but it's not like they're NOS or anything.

    With all the above in mind, i think i actually will take your offer for a refund of the two 6581R4 SIDs. That will be 2 * 13euros + 6euros shipping = 32euros

    Also, i will need your address so i can return the chips. Please send it to me as PM.

    Thanks!

  6. #66
    mic72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flemming View Post
    I spoke to a real SID guru who told me to test thoroughly once more, and this was what i found out:
    If your friend would be a SID guru he would know that it is impossible cannot distinguish R2 from R3 or R4 (or R4AR). Point!

    PM with address will follow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flemming View Post
    Anyways, even if the chips are from same country, same factory, same datecode and everything, they do not sound alike.
    This is the usual behavior of all(!) 6581... your SID guru should know that! (In fact: This was the reason why I started collecting them.)
    Last edited by mic72; 22nd May 2015 at 12:20.

  7. #67
    Amibayer! demolition's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demolition View Post
    I got around to testing the chips now and at least two of the three SIDs I received have broken filters (I need to listen closely to the 1st one again to verify if it is good or not). Will send PM to ask for clarification.
    After some more testing I can verify that the filters are all working although quite distorted but that it may be within the quite large tolerances of the 6581. I have listened to some of my other 6581s and some have similar distortion, so I do not think it is uncommon. Thus, I have decided to keep all three SIDs.
    A1200 (NOS) : 030 33MHz 128MB fast RAM (ACA1232) : Indivision AGA MkII : 8GB CF : RR USB : Ethernet
    A600 #1 : 080 V2 : 128MB fast : 2MB chip : Indivision ECS : 32GB CF : RR USB
    : Ethernet | A600 #2 : 010 : 2MB chip
    A500 : 68000 42MHz : 1MB chip : 8MB fast : 4GB CF | A500+ : 080 V2+ : 128MB fast : 2MB chip : 32GB CF

  8. #68
    DonChaos's Avatar
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    I like to buy some.
    Are they still available ?

  9. #69
    Inactive Member dean7878's Avatar
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    Declaring interest in 5. Prefer R4 or R4AR. Thanks.

  10. #70
    mic72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonChaos View Post
    I like to buy some.
    Are they still available ?
    Yes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dean7878 View Post
    Declaring interest in 5. Prefer R4 or R4AR. Thanks.
    Pm sent

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