How long are Amiga's going to survive ?

I often wondered and asked the question, how long are Amiga's going to survive ?

We should be running out of parts by now.
The easy things like replacing capacitors, is not a problem, but getting things like Lisa or Alice or even Agnus or CIA's is going to get more problematic.

I know there is FPGA and WinUAE, but for a moment I would like to forget these and focus on the question.

So what do you think ?

how long is a piece of string?

my advice,make the most from these machines before they die.
nothing lasts forever.
the memory of them will outlast us.

I hope mine are good for another 20 years anyway.

Not sure what the possible lifetime of an IC might be, do they wear out with or without use? I think they are probably pretty resilient and most failures of chips are caused by something else failing first.

I predict working Amigas will exist after all original amiga owners are dead. So long as someone is around who cares to preserve them, there may even be one or two working specimens centuries down the line.

Buzzfuzz said:

I often wondered and asked the question, how long are Amiga's going to survive ?

We should be running out of parts by now.
The easy things like replacing capacitors, is not a problem, but getting things like Lisa or Alice or even Agnus or CIA's is going to get more problematic.

I know there is FPGA and WinUAE, but for a moment I would like to forget these and focus on the question.

So what do you think ?

Click to expand...

In a way they have already been dying with leaky CAPS and battery's that have killed a few. The machines that will last the longest are the ones that are used regularly, the moth-balled ones are mostly dead already icard

I guess realistically, most Amiga's still in use to day will be retired over the next 10 years and certainly within 20 years I think the classic hardware scene will be all but non-existent

So basically, enjoy it while you can

My Amiga 1200 works as reliably as it did the day I bought it (received it for Christmas as I was 13 at the time).

I have heard of the capacitor problem, but have mostly only experienced it in the Sega Game Gear. I don't know what causes the capacitors to leak or degrade.

I find it a little disturbing that the two computers that degrade the quickest are the two most popular machines out there i.e. the Apple and the IBM compatible. I haven't counted ARM based phone/tablet devices in this despite being seemingly much better made. They aren't quite computers yet. However, with each release of the Android OS they are becoming more and more useable for big interfaces (I'd always recommend removing your phone operator or device brand's flavour of android where possible as they are noticably slower and their graphic designers seem to change things for the sake of doing it instead of making actual improvements. That and the extra software they include being locked in so you can't uninstall them, and god knows whatever extra services they run in the background that set my paranoia off and most importantly slow the device down - I create bespoke database driven software for android devices, so I know what I'm talking about).

Its incredible what you can still achieve with a 2mb Amiga, although admittedly I recently upgraded my A1200 with a Blizzard 030 MKIV and additionally purchased an A4000 030 with the intention of fitting an 060/PPC card.

The A1200 capacitors have not leaked so far, and I will seek to replace them soon. The A4000 is certainly okay as I purchased it from the legendary FitzSteve who had already recapped it before I purchased it.

Hello. I usually repair Amigas and i get a lot in a very bad shape. Some of them are still alive, others needed hard work and are alive now, the end is dead... I've got a big Amiga cemetery at home, for spare now.
As I repaired a lot, I can say :
- change the caps
- pull off the old battery
- clean the mobo with lemon juice, aceton...
and you will give your amiga 5,10,15 or perhaps 20 years more
be careful when you pull of the roms (I seen a dead A4000 with 10 dead tracks under the roms due to pulling them off with a knife !!!!)
be sure that your home made pc tower is safe (PSU, discharge etc...)
For the 'only' dead chipset... Well the spare mobos are here for that, sometimes it's usefull, sometimes not enough.
You can buy Amiga twice too (change the caps etc...) to be sure you still have one if the second died... (I have 2 A4000T, 3 or 4 A1200, 2 A2000 and still always frightened to loose one....).

Hivernaal said:

You can buy Amiga twice too (change the caps etc...) to be sure you still have one if the second died... (I have 2 A4000T, 3 or 4 A1200, 2 A2000 and still always frightened to loose one....).

Click to expand...

Yeah, thats pretty much why I have the setup in my signature.
(Obviously cannot run to having an 060 just sitting around though in my spare boxed 1200!)

Hivernaal said:

clean the mobo with lemon juice

Click to expand...

Are you sure about this one? Lemon juice dries sticky and will surely eat away at the tracks in the PCB.

My dad cleaned some brass with lemon juice once at the recommendation of an 'expert', and although it worked briefly, the brass was sticky and it didn't take long for the brass to turn blue. Brasso restored it though.

I'm no electronics or chemistry whizz, I mean no offence and hope that I'm wrong, but if lemon does that to brass, then what will it do to plastic and copper?

nicholas.jj.taylor said:

Hivernaal said:

clean the mobo with lemon juice

Click to expand...

Are you sure about this one? Lemon juice dries sticky and will surely eat away at the tracks in the PCB.

My dad cleaned some brass with lemon juice once at the recommendation of an 'expert', and although it worked briefly, the brass was sticky and it didn't take long for the brass to turn blue. Brasso restored it though.

I'm no electronics or chemistry whizz, I mean no offence and hope that I'm wrong, but if lemon does that to brass, then what will it do to plastic and copper?

Click to expand...

the acid in the lemon is to neutralise the alkaline in the battery that eats through the traces,your supposed to clean it up after with tap water to get the residue off then use ipa after that(when itas completly dry).

the lemon is just one step in a process.

Lemon juice works an absolute treat. My formerly dead A3000 came back to life with a bit of zesty lemon freshness!

Here's a pic from my A3000 revival thread:

"It's bathtime for three lovely ladies! Agnus, Denise and Paula share an acid-bath in some lemon juice."

I would imagine stuff that gets regular use will outlast all those countless machines left to rot in cupboards/lofts.
Of course even regularly used machines will suffer wear and tear faults, sadly no component is everlasting.
But regular care and maintenance will ensure a long life!

Any one chip could easily last over 50 years.

The problem is it could also easily fail after just 5, and with so many chips having to work together on one board - the board failure-rate will be getting higher, which will mean boards being trashed as 'non-working' without trying to fix them. Spares will be becoming more rare of the chips that cannot be replaced, so price will become the key...

So, enjoy the Amiga whilst you can, I'd guess that in another 10-15 years prices will be rather high for the rarer IC's etc...

I don't see any reason why I won't still have my Amigas (at least some of them) in 10 years. Yes, they could develop faults, but then I'll just fix them again. But obviously, the amount of Amigas on the market will slowly but surely decline. This is also why I prefer to resurrect broken ones than buy some in already good condition. The latter doesn't help the availability much.

Since my Amigas have been recapped recently (600s and 1200), batteries have been removed, and they are stored in a dry place with a stable temperature, I expect them to last for many more years. Even 20 years isn't unrealistic, although I'm sure that my remaining good floppies will surely have died by then.

There's no reason that many of our Amigas can't keep on going, as long as they're cared for and serviced regularly.

Making sure the PSU is giving out correct voltages and has surge protection will help. Removing batteries and replacing capacitors is always a good plan, too.

Making sure the machine doesn't fill with dust and that the fans keep working should give you years of happy retro computing.

I think that the retro scene 20 years from now will be full of the few working Wiis, PS3s and 360s that are left (if any) and very little PCs if they're considered unique enough to be remembered, maybe some current Macs.

It's difficult to imagine what we will be using at the time though! Maybe quantum APUs or something?

Storage is key here. Although people are correct in saying that ones left to rust away in sheds for 20 years will obviously fair badly, not being used is not necessarily a bad thing. I have had a lot of 'new old stock' consoles over the years, some well over 25 years old, and if stored correctly these things can still look like the day they were manufactured and work perfectly. Caps do not leak if not used, and batteries are also less likely to. I've opened a few up and the electronics and PCBs still look and smell factory fresh.

So storage/care is the main factor, and the few unused examples left should be cherished as the used ones will continue to deteriorate.

roy_bates said:

the acid in the lemon is to neutralise the alkaline in the battery that eats through the traces,your supposed to clean it up after with tap water to get the residue off then use ipa after that(when itas completly dry).

the lemon is just one step in a process.

Click to expand...

I thought that this would be the case, and was worried that the missing 'clean off the excess acid with tap water' might lead to some prematurely dead Amigas.

Its brilliant to think that such an abundant, cheap and pleasant smelling commodity such as lemon juice can be so useful in so many applications.

Lemons taste great too! A little off-topic here and permission to boast like a ruddy man, but my girlfriend made me some lemon soup once. Now, this sounds crazy I know, but it tastes incredible! It a recipe from the Dairy cook book (Sue Ashworth) that many budding cooks seem to own. I can't recommend it highly enough.

However, possibly not to be made using the very same batch of lemon juice used to restore a once-crusty computer. Top marks for being such a pioneering (albeit ill at best) planeteer though!

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 ----------

AmiNeo said:

I think that the retro scene 20 years from now will be full of the few working Wiis, PS3s and 360s that are left

Click to expand...

Its a shame I know and I really wish I didn't think this way, but I'm convinced that in the interests of keeping the average consumer buying new stuff, modern electronics are designed to fail after only a few years of 'fair' use.

This isn't to say that there won't be working PS3s or XBoxes in years to come, but I'd be surprised if there are as high a percentage as there are working Amigas.

This is definitely only my opinion though. I don't know for certain that electronics are designed to fail. I would love to be told that I'm wrong too.

hehe i don't think Xbox 360/PS3 or any 'geekery' of our time are wellmade enough to live again 10/15 or 20 years... Everything's now made to die in 2 or 3 years....
Sadely. It's was not this way of thinking 20 years aga, that's why a lot of A1000/500/2000/3000 are still working.

Luckily for Amiga Fans, the later models (A600, A1200 etc) decided to go for SMD components. These parts (other than the custom chips) are still being produced, so even if they do fail, they will still be available for quite some time to come. Thru-pin parts such as those on the A500 are already becoming rarer and more difficult to find.
Eitherway, ICs are pretty robust as long as they are being used within their parameters. So if you want your computer to last longer here's some tips:

1 - Avoid mechanical shock and vibration - ie: don't transport it too often.
2 - Don't let it get too hot or cold - If ICs are running hot their lifespan is shortened considerably, so add heatsinks to anything that gets too hot.
3 - Avoid moisture - Don't store it in the garden shed.
4 - Avoid static - Don't use the computer on the duvet, wearing the socks your granny gave you for christmas while shuffling your feet on a deep-pile carpet.
5 - Avoid connecting / disconnecting things while the computer is on.

If you can manage all that, plus the additional battery, capacitor and PSU advice from above, your computer should easily outlive you. ICs rarely fail just for the fun of it.

Bryce.

And keeping some broken Amigas around for parts instead of throwing them away will also be useful once you do get a problem as you'll likely have the parts to fix it.

I got about 8 dead C64s a couple of weeks ago. So far I've assembled 3 working ones, and I expect to be able to build at least 1-2 more from the pile. These would otherwise probably just have been thrown out, which would have been a shame.. They are not particularly rare atm, but they might be at some point. Even though these are already 30 years old, they should easily last 10 more years and probably 20 if they got a refurb with new caps, regulators and a modern PSU, which is the most likely thing to die and kill them.