Elitist or not - the retro scene?

mjnurney

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I hear comments about the Amiga scene being Elitist , i suppose its a regular thread on any retro forum but why is that? Well its simple enough - our hobby is not commercial anymore.

Mastertronic / codemasters or hit squad are not going to be releasing software for the Amiga or any other, no one is going to make stuff unless it makes money or at a minimum - pays for its self.

Development of new hardware and software costs money.= its that simple.

Hardware is stunningly expensive to produce in small numbers. What is the percentage of Amiga owners willing to buy new hardware ?


If we want new Dpaint, Octamed, OS5 ...it will cost money.

why do we all moan about it so much?, golf , beer , cars , smoking, i bet we spend more on that ?


I dont suppose any of use will go in to work for a month for free just because the boss wants something that may or may not be commercial.



anyway .... beer on friday :)

and this thread should get people in a fury
 
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roy_bates

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im not sure its elitist,i just think a few of us(maybe most in general i suppose)just cant let go.

emulators just dont cut it for me,but thats understandable.

the hardware is a really small niche so for the most part i can understand there isnt really all that many people per machines still around these days most are happy with the bog standard units from years ago to play the odd game...

as for software its probably the same as above really only even less people would be interested in productivity software or a new os.
 

mjnurney

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that fair enough Roy and i agree with all of it.

i just don't get the moaning about prices of stuff thats new - not old stuff on auction sites.

Can you imagine the business model and a banks comments?

yes , i'd like to borrow 20K to make a run of hardware for a computer that was abandoned 25 years ago by a company that went bankrupt and i have a target market of maybe 500.

:)
 

roy_bates

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i think the bank would just laugh at me and call the white coat brigade,lol


i think you would have to be doing this on the side of an already established electronics company in its spare time so to speak if they had spare cash floating around to support a "small" project,the runs would just be too small.
 

Firthy2002

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The other problem is that parts to make the fancy new kit people want may not be readily available.
I'm sure a new 060 accelerator for the A1200 would sell highly, the problem is there is no fresh stock of 060 chips to make one.
 

mjnurney

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and thats what people do , take a risk and make stuff for our machines and good luck to them.

and yes i wish prices where lower but thats whats happens in a small market sadly.

bring on the new hardware :)

- - - Updated - - -

freescale sell new 68060 but at a huge cost
 

edd_jedi

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I don't really understand the question to be honest, but for me it's all about perceived value for money. It's hard to have this discussion with Amibay's price driving rule, but beating around the bush I don't really have an upper limit on spends for retro stuff, but I do like to feel like I'm getting value for money. Therefore spending x amount on 128MB of RAM grates when you can walk down to PC World and buy a 4GB stick for the same price! Same goes for processors, x hundred pounds for an 060 or PPC seems ridiculous when you can buy an i7 for a quarter of the price. But I do appreciate it's supply and demand. I hear what you're saying about small runs of new hardware costing money, but with the ridiculous prices retro processor cards go for I don't see why a new processor card couldn't be financially viable, I'd certainly buy one.

Software wise it's all about nostalgia for me. I have no interest in new productivity software for retro machines, I already have modern software on my modern computer that does the job better. However I would happily pay a good price for software (games) that deliver an authentic 'retro experience' eg printed box, manual etc rather than just an ADF download.

So in a nutshell it's not elitism, just wanting value for money.
 

Justin

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the poll is a little skewed for me to vote on but i will use my standard example.

I in no way want a business to not make money.

here is my problem and lets go with the OS

1st off OS4.xxx isn't actually very good, it is OK but it is not great, AROS is actually a better OS and is free, that aside if i wanted to sell OS4.xx i would be charging elitist prices for it, i still suggest that selling 10000 units at £30 each = £300000 is a much more viable business model than selling 1000 at £120 each = £120000.

So port OS4.xx to x86 and sell the OS more people are going to be willing to dual boot an OS for £30 than £120.
Once you have a broader user base you can entice more developers = more software = more users and so on and so forth :)
 

mjnurney

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The modern (?) OS and PPC hardware is always going to be a hot issue , you could argue why isn't OS4 x86 by now but if it was they couldn't sell PPC motherboards for OS4 could they.

id love to see OS4 / 5 or what ever on the PC , the time of PPC motherboards is long gone. they could even make zorro (xeno) ports on the PC if they wanted to be fancy pants.

i agree justin but i may have to disagree on friday for drinking purposes.
 
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fitzsteve

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I wouldn't call the Amiga scene, most people I see come to these sites want to play the games the loved on the hardware they used to or still own, they're looking for cheap ram upgrades or accelerators for their A1200 to play WHDLoad Games, this makes up the bulk of the community that's why the cheaper ACA cards sell well, flicker fixers, etc all stuff around the £100 mark which is what most people would spend on a new gadget.

Yes you have a deeper community of, lets call us Amiga addicts? We spend a bit more in our upgrades and want to try out the 060/PPC/OS4 etc or whatever we couldn't afford back in the day. It's our hobby, it's no different to collecting anything else be it new or old, it's what we want to spend our hard earned cash on and certainly doesn't make us elitist at all.
 
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Justin

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The modern (?) OS and PPC hardware is always going to be a hot issue , you could argue why isn't OS4 x86 by now but if it was they couldn't sell PPC motherboards for OS4 could they.

id love to see OS4 / 5 or what ever on the PC , the time of PPC motherboards is long gone. they could even make zorro (xeno) ports on the PC if they wanted to be fancy pants.

i agree justin but i may have to disagree on friday for drinking purposes.

lol deal!!! :)

what ever you post between now and then is pure baloney :p
 

protek

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With the acquisition of an Apple IIGS I've come to realise that the iPremium seems to carry over to the new hardware developed for the II series machines too. On pretty much any else platform you can get a modern or old hard drive solution well under 100 € but with Apple you end up paying well above that limit. One thing may be that most developers offering expansions for Apple are based on U.S. and they run their services more businesslike. While I can appreciate the fact that if you run a business, you need to make a profit, there seems not to be much hobbyist/community driven efforts to produce new hardware. Perhaps the Apple II user base isn't that technology oriented as let's say the Sinclair Spectrum user base.

The iPremium seems to apply also to the existing Apple II hardware to some sense. While you're still able to make reasonable or good deals on Apple II hardware there are absolutely ludicrous examples also based only the fact that it's an Apple.

I think Kickstarter would be an optimal solution to fund a hardware project. That way you can get your hands on a piece of hardware with a reasonable investment and the developer should have enough funds to produce it.
 

roy_bates

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what you spend for me would be depending on what i want it to do.

steve is pretty much right on the mark for most people,you could imagine a pyramid shaped tree and the people that simply dont care about money is right at the top looking for the best fastest hardware they can get processor wise.
and then your left with a hand full of people.because for me its what i want.

were as most of the bulk would be near the bottom getting hard drives cf's and the odd memory upgrade,bellow them are the floppy users above the cf and memory card buyers are the 030 card owners(most would probably be satisfied with this and never go further)

supply and demand fits this structure perfectly for the most part.

i would say that the os 4 user would be a separate tree on this and pretty much on their own so to speak near top.
where the buk of the user would be 68k and just looking for a bit of nostalgia.


its pretty easy to confuse this with elitism,when your looking at the most expensive hardware for a machine most would never get,its just simply what a individual wants for them selves...its that simple for me.

and with that said this poll would actually not fit what i or some others would or have spent on my or their machines,because three figures would simply not be there after a while.
and we all know its true...
 
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fitzsteve

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My other hobby is collecting empty beer bottles, I really don't want to know how much I spend on that one, all I know is it's literally money ****ed down the toilet LOL.

At least with an overpriced 060 you have something to show for your money :D

I'll add to the poll if I can, I'd buy new software (games) for example I'd buy a new run of Putty Squad if it came boxed on Floppy or even a CD, I'd pay £15-£20 quite happilly.

New hardware, yes I've spent big bucks in the past but I'm more sensible now having tried most Amiga hardware I found my niche is the A1200 with an 030 or A4000 with an 040, hence the machines I have kept. Recent purchases have been the Rapid Road USB and X-Surf100 for my A4000, again both around the £100 mark.

I sometimes have sellers remorse for my old A4000T/Mirage Pro Tower and CSPPC's or my A1200 with BPPC/BVision but I got out of them everything I wanted.

The only thing I really miss is my uA1, I regret every day that I sold that in favour of the AmigaOne XE which has been nothing but a pain in the @ss.
 

MartinW

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I think Steve's last post there pretty much sums it up for me.

I don't know why, as a software developer I shouldn't be this way, but I do have a bit of a block on spending any more than about £20 on software for retro computers. But up to that sort of amount (not set in stone) I have no problem with at all. And I have to confess to sometimes in the past buying stuff just to get it and it then sits on the shelf never played. Having said all of that, I bought some new release Vectrex games last year that were something like £35 £40 each and they were fantastic and worth every penny.

Hardware isn't as clear cut as the poll makes it. I would (and recently did) spend up to £150 for the accelerators and scan doublers that Steve talks about. But I wouldn't spend that sort of amount on a USB card. But I don't think that's just about the money. That's the perceived value thing. I just think when I see USB cards and what they go for "there has to be a cheaper way" and I usually find one :p

Where I do draw the line on hardware is the ultra expensive modern stuff like the X1000 etc. But again, it's actually not about the money. There is a very definitive line in my head where retro becomes too close to modern and when it reaches that point, for me it just fails and I end up thinking "why am I bothering? my Mac / PC can do this much better and easier" So would I spend £1000+ on something? No. But not because of the money.

Having said all of that, the cost of the GBA1000 must be getting over half of that now AND SOME !!

Sorry if I've overstepped the mark on price discussion here, but this was a thread / poll on prices of modern hardware software, so it was kind of inevitable.
 

fitzsteve

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We should be ok as long as we keep to discussion new products that you can buy and don't speculate on the value of used stuff :)
 

custardo

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I'm not talking about buying new Amiga hard- or software in particular, but in general I'm prepared to pay a relative high amount of money for stuff if it's really useful or convenient. Now to be honest, I'm inclined to pay more easily if there's a hardware component to it, simply because I'm more of into the hardware side of things. And if there's hardware involved and small numbers, it's hard to do things on the cheap.
 

Nobby_UK

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I had to choose the miserly option, because I am unemployed.
If I was working I would (and did) spend a lot more.

I may even be interested in other 16 bit machines of the day...
 
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