End of the road for dirty diesels?

Snoozy

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According to AA reports diesel cars are set for a collapse in value as taxes are increased due to their poisonous effects on the environment = small particulate emissions - esp nitrous oxides. The link to cancers and respiratory disease is increasing. This combined with nearly a £2bn short-fall in tax receipts due to many newer diesels dodging car tax due to lower CO emissions, means the situation is in place for hefty tax increase on diesels and diesel fuel. Ideal for the government as they can just blame european rulings. Much to the horror of 11m UK motorists.

BMW, VAG and Mercedes will also be horrified that their investment in diesel technology may have been ill judged.

(I've been on LPG these past 6 years, was thinking to purchase new car - maybe diesel, but not now!)

Full details here:

https://home.bt.com/lifestyle/motor...l-charges-and-big-depreciation-11363978817654
 

Harrison

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It all depends how many miles you drive. If you drive less than 100 miles a week a petrol or hybrid car is probably better anyway because you wouldn't benefit from the high MPG of a diesel and wouldn't be able to give it a long enough run to recycle/regen the DPF. But I drive over 400 miles a week so the fuel cost difference is quite big. I can go a full week on a single tank of diesel, but would have to fill up again for most petrol cars.

My car doesn't fall into the low emissions bracket anyway so the Tax is already higher, but our other car, a Volvo V60 Drive 1.6 eHDi does and only currently costs £30 a year to TAX, so that could in theory go up.

But, lets wait and see. We often get these reports in the papers and then never see anything happen, or it's taken out of context.

One thing is certain, I don't drive into any of the big cities mentioned so wouldn't be hit with any extra penalties.
 

Snoozy

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I think it would be the car tax brackets for diesels that would all likely be shifted 2 or 3 increments upwards, ie. £30 ---> £170

In the mean time I would think diesel could be increased by upto 20p per litre with a subsequent annual fuel duty escalator to deter people from using it, ie adding 5p per litre 2017, 8 p per litre 2018 etc.

Perhaps HGV and industry will receive a rebate to discourage inflation via increased trsanportation costs.

The previous government has admitted they were in error by encouraging motorists to switch to diesel.
 

Bryce

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All a steaming pile of marketing scare-mongering. In some countries the diesel car tax is going up, in some it's going down. Diesels will be around for a loooong time yet and BMW, Volvo and others definitely aren't regreting any strategic decisions they've made regarding diesel. In some countries it's a good idea to go diesel, in others a very bad decision, but in all cases it's down to local government policies and not the viability of the technology.

Bryce.
 

Snoozy

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All a steaming pile of marketing scare-mongering.

Bryce.

No, in the UK the AA is considered a reliable voice within the motor industry. We can't deny the facts that our old government said it was wrong to recommend diesel...what is market scaremongering about the AA and our old government ?!

I have a 2007 BMW E90 LPG and wish BMW had invested more heavily in alternative sources of fuel.

If these predictions move forward German car manufacturing is due to take a heavy hit due to its over reliance on diesel engine development.
 

User2921

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Slightly OT, so forgive me (or scold me and I'll shut up! :p ) but things like this make me happy. I'm throwing in fully with Musk and battery powered vehicles/homes/etc, and hopefully quickly finding ways to stop burning fossil fuels to generate energy.
 

Bryce

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No, in the UK the AA is considered a reliable voice within the motor industry. We can't deny the facts that our old government said it was wrong to recommend diesel...what is market scaremongering about the AA and our old government ?!

I have a 2007 BMW E90 LPG and wish BMW had invested more heavily in alternative sources of fuel.

If these predictions move forward German car manufacturing is due to take a heavy hit due to its over reliance on diesel engine development.

I fully believe the statements from the AA and they are a lot more trustworthy than other Automobile Associations (such as the German ADAC). I was a member of the AA myself when I lived in Ireland, but you are hugely over-estimating the effect that a UK Diesel tax will have on a German car manufacturer. Let's take a look at recent BMW sales figures:

Approximately: 21% went to China, 18% went to the US, 13% stayed in Germany, 10% went to the UK, the rest went to other countries. So even if 50% of UK sales were Diesel, then BMW "got it wrong" with 5% of their vehicles??? BMW spend huge amounts on Petrol, Diesel, Hydrogen and Electrical power train development. Diesels are non-existant in the US. China buys quite a lot of diesels, but they don't have preferential taxes for any particular fuel. Germany isn't great on tax breaks either for particular fuels. To say that they will take a "huge hit" because a tiny part of their market will switch is a bit exagerated. Even if the tax has an effect, UK BMW fans will just swap from Diesel BMWs to Petrol BMWs, a barely noticable glitch in the figures.

Bryce.
 
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Snoozy

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Bryce, these are Nitrous Oxide standards which all european countries need to meet. VAG/BMW/Mercedes are likely to have at least 50% of their market within europe.
 

Merlin

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Diesels are so much more efficient, especially for large trucks and buses, so the Diesel engine isn't going anywhere soon. The Euro 5 and Euro 6 engines are so much cleaner when compared to older engines that they can keep up for now. HDI technology has also helped the Diesel keep up in cars and the regenerative catalysts fitted to newer cars (the ones that use an additive tank in the boot) are also very clean on emissions.

I was quite shocked to find out that AdBlue (the additive used on the latest Diesel truck engines, to regenerate the catalyst) is nothing more than a solution of urea. I discovered this when a truck carrying a delivery of it along with our goods had a leaking container that was spotted as we were unloading our pallets. I asked the supplier for a safety data sheet so that we knew how to deal with the spill once we had contained it. The answer was to hose it down the drain, as urea is a major constituent of urine an d it would be just like flushing the loo.

The car version is based on some sort of rare earth metal salt technology, I believe.
 
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Moggsie

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combined with nearly a £2bn short-fall in tax receipts due to many newer diesels dodging car tax due to lower CO emissions, means the situation is in place for hefty tax increase on diesels and diesel fuel.

^This... The real reason why the state is looking to put the tax up on diesels. It's nothing to do with protecting our health (same with the BS about C02 emissions when they first introduced the current tax system in 2001). It's simply that they aren't generating enough revenue because people have, quite rightly, opted for cars that fall into the £30 or less tax bracket.

- - - Updated - - -

I was quite shocked to find out that AdBlue (the additive used on the latest Diesel truck engines, to regenerate the catalyst) is nothing more than a solution of urea. I discovered this when a truck carrying a delivery of it along with our goods had a leaking container that was spotted as we were unloading our pallets. I asked the supplier for a safety data sheet so that we knew how to deal with the spill once we had contained it. The answer was to hose it down the drain, as urea is a major constituent of urine an d it would be just like flushing the loo.

Are you taking the p**s?
 
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Bryce

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Bryce, these are Nitrous Oxide standards which all european countries need to meet. VAG/BMW/Mercedes are likely to have at least 50% of their market within europe.

I know, but it's up to each individual country to decide how and to what amount they burden the owners with tax. The UK Government have decided to base a tax on these norms, but other countries may not, and those who do may have much lower tax differences. BMW as with most successful car manufacturers aren't dumb. They monitor the political trends and have their lobbiests. They know exactly how to "weight" their development and manufacturing capacities. This is possibly a minor annoyance for them, but nothing that would get them worried.

Bryce.
 

Harrison

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Slightly OT, so forgive me (or scold me and I'll shut up! :p ) but things like this make me happy. I'm throwing in fully with Musk and battery powered vehicles/homes/etc, and hopefully quickly finding ways to stop burning fossil fuels to generate energy.

Completely pointless argument. Battery powered cars need to be recharged. That electric is generated on the whole by still burning fossil fuel.

I do however agree that if the world wasn't so tied into the greed of oil the technology is already there for zero emission liquid hydrogen cars.
 

User2921

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Slightly OT, so forgive me (or scold me and I'll shut up! :p ) but things like this make me happy. I'm throwing in fully with Musk and battery powered vehicles/homes/etc, and hopefully quickly finding ways to stop burning fossil fuels to generate energy.

Completely pointless argument. Battery powered cars need to be recharged. That electric is generated on the whole by still burning fossil fuel.

I do however agree that if the world wasn't so tied into the greed of oil the technology is already there for zero emission liquid hydrogen cars.

How's it pointless? Instead of us figuring out how to generate power cleanly for each car, the battery (being power source agnostic and not caring how you generate power) can be an extension of whatever clean and reliable energy source you develop for your home.
 

cugar124

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Slightly OT, so forgive me (or scold me and I'll shut up! :p ) but things like this make me happy. I'm throwing in fully with Musk and battery powered vehicles/homes/etc, and hopefully quickly finding ways to stop burning fossil fuels to generate energy.

Completely pointless argument. Battery powered cars need to be recharged. That electric is generated on the whole by still burning fossil fuel.

I do however agree that if the world wasn't so tied into the greed of oil the technology is already there for zero emission liquid hydrogen cars.

How's it pointless? Instead of us figuring out how to generate power cleanly for each car, the battery (being power source agnostic and not caring how you generate power) can be an extension of whatever clean and reliable energy source you develop for your home.
Lol good old dirty governments all this is is yet another attempt to force people onto other fuel type's i wonder how much the motor trade paid euro mp's and others alike to come up with this.? Think about it most motor companies only surged ahead with other tech to replace our terrible internal combustion engines when the second gulf war happened now the middle east is a mess they need us to move to something that does not hold us to oil. Its i stupid idea and unrealistic as our transport network relies on diesel if they tax the fuel all goods and services will become far more expensive thus killing the economy. When the haulage trade changes its deisel engines then i would worry.
Slightly OT, so forgive me (or scold me and I'll shut up! :p ) but things like this make me happy. I'm throwing in fully with Musk and battery powered vehicles/homes/etc, and hopefully quickly finding ways to stop burning fossil fuels to generate energy.

No, in the UK the AA is considered a reliable voice within the motor industry. We can't deny the facts that our old government said it was wrong to recommend diesel...what is market scaremongering about the AA and our old government ?!

I have a 2007 BMW E90 LPG and wish BMW had invested more heavily in alternative sources of fuel.

If these predictions move forward German car manufacturing is due to take a heavy hit due to its over reliance on diesel engine development.

I fully believe the statements from the AA and they are a lot more trustworthy than other Automobile Associations (such as the German ADAC). I was a member of the AA myself when I lived in Ireland, but you are hugely over-estimating the effect that a UK Diesel tax will have on a German car manufacturer. Let's take a look at recent BMW sales figures:

Approximately: 21% went to China, 18% went to the US, 13% stayed in Germany, 10% went to the UK, the rest went to other countries. So even if 50% of UK sales were Diesel, then BMW "got it wrong" with 5% of their vehicles??? BMW spend huge amounts on Petrol, Diesel, Hydrogen and Electrical power train development. Diesels are non-existant in the US. China buys quite a lot of diesels, but they don't have preferential taxes for any particular fuel. Germany isn't great on tax breaks either for particular fuels. To say that they will take a "huge hit" because a tiny part of their market will switch is a bit exagerated. Even if the tax has an effect, UK BMW fans will just swap from Diesel BMWs to Petrol BMWs, a barely noticable glitch in the figures.

Bryce.

combined with nearly a £2bn short-fall in tax receipts due to many newer diesels dodging car tax due to lower CO emissions, means the situation is in place for hefty tax increase on diesels and diesel fuel.

^This... The real reason why the state is looking to put the tax up on diesels. It's nothing to do with protecting our health (same with the BS about C02 emissions when they first introduced the current tax system in 2001). It's simply that they aren't generating enough revenue because people have, quite rightly, opted for cars that fall into the £30 or less tax bracket.

- - - Updated - - -

I was quite shocked to find out that AdBlue (the additive used on the latest Diesel truck engines, to regenerate the catalyst) is nothing more than a solution of urea. I discovered this when a truck carrying a delivery of it along with our goods had a leaking container that was spotted as we were unloading our pallets. I asked the supplier for a safety data sheet so that we knew how to deal with the spill once we had contained it. The answer was to hose it down the drain, as urea is a major constituent of urine an d it would be just like flushing the loo.

Are you taking the p**s?
 

Merlin

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Are you taking the p**s?

Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself...
 

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mjnurney

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its the same old story isn't it ....kick the driver first.

Yes its a great Idea , kill the diesel and them watch the economy collapse. food prices triple , milk production stop. water, electricity double in price.

great idea.



"Today's diesel engines are the cleanest ever, high tech filters capture 99% of particulates and NOx emissions are down 84% since 2000."
A spokesman for the SMMT added: "We're stressing that this isn't just an issue with diesel engines. This is something that encompasses many other sectors as well."
"When you look at the UK-wide figure, road transport accounts for 27 per cent of emissions while electricity generation is around 30 per cent. So there is that to bear in mind."


It would take 42 million Euro-6 diesel cars to produce the same amount of NOx as a large coal-fired power station. Electricity generation is the biggest source of NOx emissions affecting air quality, followed by cars and commercial vehicles, heating and non-road transport. (source: EEA; SMMT; DEFRA AQPI; RACF)


  • UK NOx emissions from passenger cars have fallen 81% since 1990 – the biggest reduction of any sector. (source: DEFRA AQPI)
  • In a world without diesel, average fuel use for new cars in the UK would be 11% higher – amounting to an extra £315 million per year in fuel bills for British drivers. (source: SMMT data 2002-14)
    • Diesel cars have contributed massively to reducing CO2 emissions. Since 2002, buyers choosing diesel have saved almost 3 million tonnes of CO2 from going into the atmosphere. (source: SMMT data 2002-14)
    • Manufacturers spend billions of pounds developing new diesel technology. In 2014 alone, they invested £1 billion in British production facilities, creating 1,700 new jobs. (source: SMMT)

however...



Facts about Diesel run cars:
In 2014 more of us bought new diesel run cars than petrol:
Diesel sales: 1, 240, 287
Petrol: 1, 184, 409
Diesel 50.1% market share
Petrol 47.8% market share
10% increase in diesel sales since 2013 v 7.2% increase in petrol sales.

Diesel cars do more miles to the gallon, and produce less carbon dioxide than their counterparts. HOWEVER, they produce other harmful gasses which are also harmful.
Diesels produce 22 times the amount of soot, particulate matter, than petrol cars – a cause of cancer. And four times the oxides of nitrogen - with nitrogen dioxide the biggest worry for our health – damaging lungs and blood vessels, a cause of, heart disease, stroke and diabetes.
Particulate matter is lethal - It is are now linked with early deaths of 29,000 people across the UK. That’s rather a substantial figure because the only figure that beats, is the one associated with active smoking.
Our government has recently admitted to the EU there is too much nitrogen dioxide in 38 out of 43 areas in the UK.
 
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Bryce

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Completely pointless argument. Battery powered cars need to be recharged. That electric is generated on the whole by still burning fossil fuel.

I do however agree that if the world wasn't so tied into the greed of oil the technology is already there for zero emission liquid hydrogen cars.

And where exactly do you intend getting all the Liquid Hydrogen from?

Bryce.
 

protek

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It's 2015, where's Mr. Fusion?! :p
 

Snoozy

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Its very much expected that haulage and industrial transport will gain some exemptions from the additional diesel fuel duty per litre, to reduce the impact on the economy. Some what ironic considering they are the amongst the worst culprits.

Diesels cars are starting to flood garage sale forecourts - additional supply.... and falling demand from an increasing suspicious public means diesel car prices are falling. The government needs to clarify its position on future diesel fuel duty ( approx 58p per litre), the justification for keeping it the same as petrol is ending.
 
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