FAST ATA 1200 mk3 and Indivision AGA 1200

Ed.D

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Hi folks,

Anyone know if these 2 components will physically fit together and underneath a Mediator board; and also alongside the Subway USB clockport connector?

Thanks,
Ed.
 

Zetr0

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@Ed.D

I am affraid that this combination is physical not possible without hackery.

the problem here is the FAST ATA Mk3

You could use Risers for the FAST ATA - but this will put it in the way of the keyboard - if not to prohibit the placement of the keyboard - to certainly run the high risk of grounding out the ROM's by it.
 

fitzsteve

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Not to mention it all gets very hot, well at least when I used FastATA under my Mediator it got pretty warm indeed, and even without the Rom Risers, space under was pretty tight for things like IDE cables.

If you do get it in, it will be a very tight squeeze.

Steve.
 

Ed.D

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Thanks Zetr0 (y)

Problem is it's in a tower with a mediator. I think there still might be an issue with additional risers pushing the fast ATA up too high and hitting the mediator. I wonder if I could extend whichever chip the indivision clips over like I did with the keyboard and inverted SMT PLCC connector, probably too many connections, yes?.

Or perhaps make the Fast ATA a remote component with a cabled ROM extender allowing room for the indivision?

---------- Post added at 13:59 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

Thanks Steve, yes I'm beginning to wonder whether towerising my A1200 was really a good idea to be honest :)
 

Zetr0

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@Ed.D

Steve'o is the man with experience of Fast ATA and Mediators - I would deffer to him on this one.

although you can infact cable the ROM socket of the FAST ATA - you are sill limmited in movement by its Gayle daughter board =(

getting an Indi + Fast ATA + Subway is certainly possible - but with the restriction of the Mediator busboard I dont believe this is going to be all that possible without a serious re-think / hackery
 

Justin

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ummm Zert0.....

refresh my aging and ofter wrong memory, but this is my old mediator setup in a tower which had a Fast ATA installed as well.

ignore my insane old ramblings, as there was in indivision involvement here, sorry
 

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fitzsteve

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Thanks Zetr0 (y)

Problem is it's in a tower with a mediator. I think there still might be an issue with additional risers pushing the fast ATA up too high and hitting the mediator. I wonder if I could extend whichever chip the indivision clips over like I did with the keyboard and inverted SMT PLCC connector, probably too many connections, yes?.

I'm pretty sure Amigakit (or maybe it was elbox) claim it does all fit even with the risers, you'd have to check their sites and see if you can find the info but I'm sure I read it. However in my limited experience it looked like it would be very tight. You could always insulate the back of the Mediator to be sure.

Or perhaps make the Fast ATA a remote component with a cabled ROM extender allowing room for the indivision?

That could work... see below:

---------- Post added at 13:59 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------
Thanks Steve, yes I'm beginning to wonder whether towerising my A1200 was really a good idea to be honest :)

I don't think you'll have any regrets once its fully up and running, my system was a hard task setting up but I'm reaching the light at the end of the tunnel and trust me, its very bright and very rewarding in the end (y)

@Ed.D

Steve'o is the man with experience of Fast ATA and Mediators - I would deffer to him on this one.

although you can infact cable the ROM socket of the FAST ATA - you are sill limmited in movement by its Gayle daughter board =(

getting an Indi + Fast ATA + Subway is certainly possible - but with the restriction of the Mediator busboard I dont believe this is going to be all that possible without a serious re-think / hackery

There is small cable between the Gayle Daughter board and FastATA, its not fixed so you could extend that too, and in fact that would be a very nice solution as you could mount the IDE ports somewhere with some access if you want to change things without removing all your PCI Cards and the Mediator, which is a PITA!

We really need cabled Rom (or other socket) extenders to be produced with a profesional quality finish as it would solve other problems like Indi ECS in an A600, one to mention to Amigakit and the likes :cool:

Steve.
 

Ed.D

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I could always sell the FAST ATA and use the SCSI kit I have with my Blizzard, I was under the impression that FAST ATA was faster than SCSI tho', but then there's the DVD-ROM to connect (without paying for an expensive SCSI>IDE adaptor). Hmmm, a few options, need to think some more about this. :coffee:

---------- Post added at 14:26 ---------- Previous post was at 14:19 ----------

Thanks again Steve, I'm not giving up yet :) I think I'll follow up your suggestion and see if Amiga kit can make a cabled ROM extender. Actually I'm pretty confident I could do this if I can find the parts, shouldn't be too difficult, just lots of soldering.

After all that thinking it's time for a cup of splosh! :coffee:
 

fitzsteve

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I could always sell the FAST ATA and use the SCSI kit I have with my Blizzard, I was under the impression that FAST ATA was faster than SCSI tho', but then there's the DVD-ROM to connect (without paying for an expensive SCSI>IDE adaptor). Hmmm, a few options, need to think some more about this. :coffee:

I get exactly the same speed from my PPC SCSI as I do from the FastATA, 4.7mb/sec and thats with HDD's and CF's - maybe thats due to max transfer settings I have set though, something I need to investigate more.

I've left the FastATA out of this Tower project for now and I use the Bliz SCSI, and for now my FastATA lives in my Desktop A1200 and makes Doom load really fast! About all its useful for in the 030 machine lol.

I really want to get the FastATA back in my Tower for OS4 since that cannot make use of the Blizzard SCSI, but these are all projects in working - I need to try and finish one before moving on.

With regards to Rom extenders, I was seraching and since Amigakit already make a cable for their Rom switches on the A500/A600 (albeit a different socket) but maybe if a few of us want such a thing for A1200's they'd make a special batch for us? I'd be in for a set and I'm others would too.

Oh and we still don't know if the INDI AGA will pysically fit yet...

Steve.
 

Ed.D

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doesn't the fast ATA use 100% of your CPU cycles thought while the SCSI doesn't?


I'll have to do some reading up on the differences.

Something I noticed a while ago before trying hard disk was, when I had a CF card connected to FAST ATA I was getting over 6MB/sec according to Sysinfo. That was with a Sandisk Extreme IV 4.0GB card. With hard disks I see the same as Steve about 4.2MB/sec.
 

fitzsteve

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doesn't the fast ATA use 100% of your CPU cycles thought while the SCSI doesn't?


I'll have to do some reading up on the differences.

Something I noticed a while ago before trying hard disk was, when I had a CF card connected to FAST ATA I was getting over 6MB/sec according to Sysinfo. That was with a Sandisk Extreme IV 4.0GB card. With hard disks I see the same as Steve about 4.2MB/sec.

Stangely my DH1/2/3 etc partitions show 6.5m/sec but I think its a false reading as sysinfo shows this immediately (no time to read disk)

My SYS: partitions always shows Between 4.2-4.7m/sec what ever I use and takes time to read the disk.

I understand the main benefit of SCSI is the CPU cycles, if you're not using PPC and have no use for OS4 then SCSI is a good option and you can always run removable media off the Native IDE.
 

Zetr0

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@thread

SYSINFO - although a great little program has some faults - one of them being not able to take into account the CACHE that is on IDE drives these days.

PIO IDE
Fast ATA IDE is PIO (programmed Input / Output) device otherwise know as Polled Cue
Your CPU is the controller - as such it has to instruct and deal with all the input / output of the device as well process that said data - this will use upto 100% of your CPU time on lower processors.

There is a HARD limmit with the Fast ATA - and this changed pending processor and device - but the best I have read is a little over 5MB a second with 60% CPU time in use on an 060@66 (thats a lot of CPU time! - over 25MIPs wasted!!! or the entire otput of an 040@33Mhz basically)

Although I suspect the testing program was not correctly assesing the 060 (sysinfo doesn't) so I would say that would be about half of that (about 11MIPS wasted)

Although the Fast ATA theoretcial output is stated at 16MB per second - this can NEVER be achieved ... ever... its not actually possible.... there is no where near that bandwidth availble from the motherboard - I would hazzed a guestimate that 6MB would be the max you could pull from the A1200 mobo.


DMA SCSI
DMA SCSI is much better than Polled IDE - this is because DMA SCSI off loads all the fetching and storing of data - DMA - Direct Memory Access means that the SCSI controller is just issued commands to get so and so data and store it at such and such place.... when it does this - it then tells the CPU its done, so in the mean time the CPU is off processing meaningfull data - not wasting cycles pushing it about.

So the benefit of DMA SCSI is two fold - Very fast access (about 6MB per second for Fast SCSI 2) with little CPU load - although the latter will vairy on what processor you have and what SCSI adapter you are using.


@Ed.D

You have Fast SCSI 2 DMA controller in your amiga - USE IT - you can get an internal cable made by amiga kit - this can be cheaply converted from 50pin to SCA80 - and you can pickup an interal 2.5" 80GB SCA80 SCSI Drive - for about £10 on eBay buy it now (will grab a link for you if you are interested).

I know that SCSI Optical Drives are a pain in the proverbial BUT you can get ones on fleabay for not that much - although SCSI DVDRoms are ... well.... you better sit down first ;)


@Juv
Your setup using A4091 with A3640@25mhz is limmited by the onboard FAST RAM bandwidth - I suspect with some REAL CPU fast ram this will improve the 4.1MB a sec transfer and reduce the processing time from 60% use to less than 40%.

just to give you and idea here guys in idle / use time

An 030@50 will push about 9.5 MIPS
An 040@25 will push about 18.1 MIPS

So an 040 using 60% of its procssing time is the equivilent output of an 030@50mhz

Remember while the SCSI controller is fetching and storing the next lump of data the CPU is free to work on the other - this is not factored in the Sysinfo / RCSP tests=)


Synopsis
Now there are limmitations and waits that will always encounter with SCSI controllers and these will vairy pending which you have / use - i.e.

In Juvs case an 030@25Mhz was able to perform at 4.5 MB per second READ (same device) but with a 70%+ CPU use time - Now the 030 being more syncronus with the motherboard RAM can infact hit it faster - thus the slight boon in read, however its clear there is a platu with the work that can be done with the motherboard fast of the A4091.

The truth is the lesser of a CPU you have the better the benefit that DMA SCSI gives you - lets see another example -


A humble A500+ anyone?
GVP's Impact Series Fast SCSI 2 ( DMA controller 24bit )
A stock 68000 chip (8MB FAST) Aproximately 1 MIP of processing powah!

Read Speeds of 1.7MB a second
CPU usage 10% or 0.1MIPS used

Pretty impressive in my book - so how about the CyberSCSI 2 with an 060 behind it?

Read speed of 5.8MB on my A4000 with the adapter setup in Async mode.
XC060@50Mhz CPU usage 43%

Now, you have to remember that the testing program I was using doesn't take into account the extra ALU of the 060 so infact the CPU usage is half that (about 25%) which is pretty awesome, and loads quake in seconds!


So thats a rought guide to SCSI DMA and IDE - hope that helps.
 

drbrain

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Elbox have a speed comparisons between different turbocards and FastATA MK3.
Perhaps be a bit partial as Elbox manufactures the hardware, so of course they want good numbers :unsure:

http://www.elbox.com/tests/fastata_speed.html

But SCSI is certainly always better than IDE, at least when it comes to Amiga.
I'm pushing 30MB/s with my 15krpm UW-SCSI on the CSPPC :D
 

merlinkv

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Hi to all

Time a go I have one A1200 in modded tower....

- Fast-ATA & Mediator: Fits & works

- Fast-ATA + Mediator + Indivision: NO way

Your need two sets of ROM risers to install Indi & FastATA together, but after elevating the FastATA.... forget to install Mediator....

About speed of FastATA... works fine up to PIO 3, no more... if you try PIO 4 or 5 you receive alot of checksum erros, validating disk......

About speed & multitasking, as Zetr0 said, the best is to use a SCSI solution....

Cheers
 

Zetr0

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@drbrain

Ahhh U3Wide SCSI..... tastey =D

I have to admit I have not seen that spec sheet from elbox - thats some *interesting* numbers for sure ;)

Even more interesting is the MKsoft disk speed results at the bottom of the page state state that only 7.3MB per sec is actually achievable with the Apollo 040@40mhz -

Please note that the Apollo Cards are slightly faster when buffering to and from Chip RAM

I would be interested to know if anyone tested a FAST ATA with SmartFileSystem (SFS) or Profesional File System 2/3 (PFS3) ?

I have some programs here I will link to in a bit so that you can get a general benchmark =)
 

fitzsteve

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I would be interested to know if anyone tested a FAST ATA with SmartFileSystem (SFS) or Profesional File System 2/3 (PFS3) ?

I have some programs here I will link to in a bit so that you can get a general benchmark =)

I need to do some more work with mine, all my CF's and HDD's are setup with SFS (thanks again for the tutorial!) including that on the FastATA.

I think I just need to change the MaxTransfer settings to enjoy the full speed, what setting would you suggest?

Steve.
 

Zetr0

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@Steve'o

Hiyas m8y, find a good UDMA PIO mode 5 (or greater) compatbile Harddisk - with say 8MB Cache' - somthing in the 20GB size.

Prep the drive for SFS - the max transfers you can have a little play with - but I would be interested in the following - MaxTransfers

remember MaxTransfer is not about speed but infact block size

1. 0x1FEFFFFF (should be the default)
2. 0xFFFFFFFF (i expect this to have lots of problems as this is a large block size)
3. 0x8FFFFFFF (should be interesting)

You can improve the performace (hence speed) by increasing the Buffers - have a read of the SFS document as it does infact recommend some values pending on available memory.
 

Ed.D

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Wow guys, that's some great info :bowdown: thank you.

At some point I'd still like to get an indivision ff/sd and I like a good challenge to make things work. Whatever happens I'll add the details to the Commodore A1200 Tower thread.

@Zetr0, I found those 80GB drives on the dark side (and also some 80-50/68 pin adaptors), thanks for the pointer. (y)

RE: SFS setup. My current 3.5" IDE disk setup is in the attached pics. I was getting checksum errors with MaxTransfer 0x1FE00000 and saw a suggestion by rkauer to use the standard 0xFFFFFFFF and everything seems ok with that size, so I wonder if 0x1FE00000 is better suited to CF cards.
 

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