Warning about PayPal and Seller Protection

[Astral]

Ok, something happened recently that I am still absolutely dumbfounded by.


I sold an expensive (Amiga) item on eBay to a buyer in the UK. I sent the item. The buyer claimed to not receive the item. He opened a claim with eBay (*not* PayPal). The case was found in the buyers favour via eBay, and the funds were taken back via PayPal and given to the buyer. PayPals stance was that eBay had made the decision so take it up with them. eBays communication and reasoning was inconsistent and not inline with any advertised *requirements* as a seller - in fact, eBays own guidelines tell you to refer to PayPals policies for the specific requirements.


My problem with the whole thing is, that despite receiving the funds through PayPal, and following the recommended PayPal Seller Protection Policy requirements, the claim was found in the buyers favour, by a decision that eBay made. And despite multiple emails/phone calls I have not had any satisfaction on reversal of the decision - including one where a PayPal representative actually stated to me that I had should have received Seller Protection, but to still take it up with eBay.


In a nutshell...


- I received the funds via PayPal.
- I followed the recommended PayPal Seller Protection policy requirements.
- I posted the item using PayPals actual one and only recommended method out of a possible 8 or so postage methods available from Australia post.
- The postage receipt clearly had a handwritten delivery address, post office acceptance stamp and so on.
- I provided clear photographic proof of the postal receipts to the buyer (and therefore eBay/PayPal) prior to the claim being escalated.


Despite my arguments with eBay/PayPal stating that I understand about Buyer Protection, and item satisfaction gaurantees, that it was *not my problem as a seller*, who, based on meeting their advertised Seller Protection requirements, did not receive Seller Protection.


I am posting this thread on AmiBay as a awarning to *PayPal* users regarding seller protection as I am aware a very large majority of transactions here occur via Paypal. Your protection as a seller may not occur regardless of honourable actions. I understand there is a fine line here between this being a PayPal problem and being an eBay problem and I am trying to be very careful what I say. So please take my post for what you will. I already have notified one of the mods about posting this thread to make it clear what my intention is. Please do not turn it into a general PayPal/eBay bit&^(ng thread. I don't mind clarifying anything if needed so that things are clearer as I am being careful to say enough without raving on!

 

[BluesBrothers]

Phone ebay and ask them for their official complaints address. You will need to submit your claim in writing for it to be properly considered if Ebay.au is run the same as .co.uk

It is a time consuming process but is probably the only way you'll get anywhere.

Also make sure you take all the names of everyone you speak to and log times and dates of conversations as this may provide you with additional evidence to support your claim.

May I ask,... was the item actually delivered? If not then your claim should be with the carrier of the parcel and this might be the best way of recouping your money.

 

[Templar]

That's why if you sell something expensive, bank transfer is the only option for me. I do not trust paypal anymore when it comes to receive a significant amount of money.

 

[BluesBrothers]

That's why if you sell something expensive, bank transfer is the only option for me. I do not trust paypal anymore when it comes to receive a significant amount of money.

Are you kidding:wooha:.

I'd far rather take my chances with Paypal than go passing banking details around. I.D. theft is rife and you stand to lose a lot more if they're into your banking than via PP

 

[Templar]

Sorry, what details are you actually mention? IBAN and SWIFT code is the only one that you have to share.

 

[Astral]

May I ask,... was the item actually delivered? If not then your claim should be with the carrier of the parcel and this might be the best way of recouping your money.

From what I investigated myself, no. Not at the time of the claim anyway. It may have been delivered since. I did receive "some" compensation from the postal company based on a maximum unvalued item claimable amount. But it was nowhere near the items value.

Whilst I appreciate your comments and so on, and while I agree a claim from the postal company is reasonable, that's kind of separate to the main point: my problem is with PayPal. They have policies in place. I followed the requirements to be protected under their policies. But that didn't mean a thing to them. I probably wouldn't care about the loss if I didn't follow the requirements - because that's my fault. But when I *did* follow them, I don't think the outcome is reasonable.

 

[TickledPink]

That's why if you sell something expensive, bank transfer is the only option for me. I do not trust paypal anymore when it comes to receive a significant amount of money.

Are you kidding:wooha:.

I'd far rather take my chances with Paypal than go passing banking details around. I.D. theft is rife and you stand to lose a lot more if they're into your banking than via PP

Absolutely agree. The reason for paying anything with Paypal is for the buyer protection. Unless you know the seller personally and well, a bank transfer is risky. I've done it a few times in the past, before Paypal came into being, and got ripped off just once. But there was no way to get my money back as I'd paid by bank transfer. I preordered an MIO II for the Atari 8-bit but the guy designing the device never released it and disappeared.

The problem with this situation is that eBay and Paypal are offering incompatible policies. It's difficult to see how they can provide buyer AND seller protection. Another issue for eBay/Paypal is that if they decide in favour of a buyer and yet the seller complied with seller protection requirements, then eBay are potentially in breach of contract. They need to make clear in their policies which situations buyer protection will take precedence and which situations seller protection will take precedence. Unless this is somewhere within their policies then you can conceivably have situations where eBay are in breach of contract no matter which side they find in favour of.

 

[Templar]

You both didn't understand my point probably. When you want to receive money, yes, bank transfer is preferred for me. If I want to send money to buy something from an unknown person, then paypal is preferred. But again, if you using bank transfer for buying, there is always the procedure to freeze the payment.

 

[Astral]

The problem with this situation is that eBay and Paypal are offering incompatible policies. It's difficult to see how they can provide buyer AND seller protection. Another issue for eBay/Paypal is that if they decide in favour of a buyer and yet the seller complied with seller protection requirements, then eBay are potentially in breach of contract. They need to make clear in their policies which situations buyer protection will take precedence and which situations seller protection will take precedence. Unless this is somewhere within their policies then you can conceivably have situations where eBay are in breach of contract no matter which side they find in favour of.

Well they are and they aren't. When viewing eBay's pages regarding Seller Protection it seems to be worded as a guideline only, because it specifically mentions viewing the actual policy with PayPal via a direct link that eBay provides - along the lines of "for full terms and conditions please refer to this -PayPal link-". This says to me that PayPals policy in regards to Seller Protection trumps anything that is stated on eBay.

I do agree, it would be hard to provide both buyer and seller protection especially in a case where both parties acted honourably. Perhaps some kind of 4th party insurance?

 

[Merlin]

Before this turns into 'Handbags at Dawn", I think Captain Obvious has something to say...

Only pay a large amount of money to a person that you fully trust and after having verified their identity to your satisfaction. If there is any doubt, walk away.

 

[ShambleS1980]

ok just want to say something here..
Always fully insure your parcel and have it tracked.
if the buyer is not willing to pay for the insurance and tracking then yo should either pay for it your self or not sell to that person..

I have had people claim an item did not arrive. and all they did was leave it at the depo for collection later after they had the refund..
if its tracked and insured and you phone them to ask about the insurance they will usually return the parcel to you.

if it does really get lost then they will refund you the full ammount you valued it for + the postage "provided" you prove to them that the value is correct (invoice ebay page screen shot or other evidence)

IF you do not send it tracked. and it does not arrive or they claim it did not arrive. then you cannot usually use seller protection if you did send it tracked and it did not arrive but you did not insure it to its full value. the buyer will win the case. because they never got the item they paid for. and pay pal or ebay cannot be expected to refund you for the postal services problem. the postal service also cannot be expected to re imberse you for the full value of the item unless it was insured for that ammount and you prove it was really that ammount..

after reading this thread and post. i do have to conclude that the issue here is that the item was not properly insured. and that the protection policy did infact work properly (for a change)

 

[Paul_s]

That's why if you sell something expensive, bank transfer is the only option for me. I do not trust paypal anymore when it comes to receive a significant amount of money.

Are you kidding:wooha:.

I'd far rather take my chances with Paypal than go passing banking details around. I.D. theft is rife and you stand to lose a lot more if they're into your banking than via PP

Nothing wrong in giving someone an IBAN (account number) or SWIFT (sort code). It's printed on every cheque (even debit card) you own, every transaction you do with a debit card will be available to a retailer etc

I do trust Paypal to some extent --- but they once (without warning) actually debited my bank account for no reason --- then to make matters worse instead of reversing the payment and putting the money into the bank they put it on my Paypal balance (cheaper than paying a transaction fee to the bank!!) - they did apologise and it happened to a few other people too.

 

[RetroGR]

Sorry to hear about your loss dude.Personally i use paypal always and i also use some other tricks so they cant scam me.First of all when you sell expensive staff always send the item signed and with tracking number.

If you cant provide this info to paypal the buyer can have a claim like that and they will refund him.Always keep the receipts and everything.I also put all the tracking details in the payment in paypal.Its easy and safe this way.

Best of luck with the case.

 

[Astral]

Always fully insure your parcel and have it tracked...

after reading this thread and post. i do have to conclude that the issue here is that the item was not properly insured. and that the protection policy did infact work properly (for a change)

I'm sorry, but with the greatest of respect, you are wrong.

I tried to keep my first post short while giving all of the relevant information, but I will now make a few things clear.

Despite what may be considered to be a highly recommended action of using a trackable service, it is *not* actually a requirement to be covered by Seller Protection. There are these services available for sending an item to the UK from Australia:

• Location: Zone 6
• Parcel weight: Up to 500g

[TABLE="class: serviceAvailability, width: 679"]
[TR]
[TH="class: service, bgcolor: #857874, align: left"]Service[/TH]
[TH="class: price, bgcolor: #857874, align: left"]Price[/TH]
[TH="class: weightRanges, bgcolor: #857874, align: left"]Maximum Weight[/TH]
[TH="class: availability, bgcolor: #857874, align: left"]Signature on Delivery[/TH]
[TH="class: availability, bgcolor: #857874, align: left"]Tracking[/TH]
[TH="class: availability, bgcolor: #857874, align: left"]Extra Cover[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: fn_service"]
[TD="class: service, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]

• Express Courier International PlatinumHelp text for Express Courier International Platinum

[/TD]
[TD="class: price, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]$89.20
[/TD]
[TD="class: weightRanges, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]10kg
[/TD]
[TD="class: availability notavailable, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Not Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability available, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability optional, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Optional[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: fn_service"]
[TD="class: service, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]

• Express Courier International MerchandiseHelp text for Express Courier International Merchandise

[/TD]
[TD="class: price, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]$61.50
[/TD]
[TD="class: weightRanges, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]20kg
[/TD]
[TD="class: availability available, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability available, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability optional, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Optional[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: fn_service"]
[TD="class: service, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]

• Express Courier International DocumentsHelp text for Express Courier International Documents

[/TD]
[TD="class: price, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]$54.10
[/TD]
[TD="class: weightRanges, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]20kg
[/TD]
[TD="class: availability available, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability available, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability optional, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Optional[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: fn_service"]
[TD="class: service, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]

• Express Post InternationalHelp text for Express Post International

[/TD]
[TD="class: price, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]$82.90
[/TD]
[TD="class: weightRanges, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]20kg
[/TD]
[TD="class: availability available, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability available, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability optional, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Optional[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: fn_service"]
[TD="class: service, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]

• Pack and Track InternationalHelp text for Pack and Track International

[/TD]
[TD="class: price, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]$25.20
[/TD]
[TD="class: weightRanges, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]2kg
[/TD]
[TD="class: availability notavailable, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Not Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability available, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability notavailable, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Not Available[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: fn_service"]
[TD="class: service, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]

• Registered Post InternationalHelp text for Registered Post International

[/TD]
[TD="class: price, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]$25.20
[/TD]
[TD="class: weightRanges, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]2kg
[/TD]
[TD="class: availability available, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability notavailable, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Not Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability notavailable, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Not Available[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: fn_service"]
[TD="class: service, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]

• Air MailHelp text for Air Mail

[/TD]
[TD="class: price, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]$18.20
[/TD]
[TD="class: weightRanges, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]20kg
[/TD]
[TD="class: availability notavailable, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Not Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability notavailable, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Not Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability optional, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Optional[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: fn_service"]
[TD="class: service, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]

• Sea MailHelp text for Sea Mail

[/TD]
[TD="class: price, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]$10.80
[/TD]
[TD="class: weightRanges, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: left"]20kg
[/TD]
[TD="class: availability notavailable, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Not Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability notavailable, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Not Available[/TD]
[TD="class: availability optional, bgcolor: initial, align: left"]Optional[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[h=3]Legend:[/h]

• Available
• Not Available
• Optional

Which one would you choose to be covered? It's tricky because not all are trackable, and not all are item value insurable. And things start to get expensive as you go up the list - and you'll probably notice that the more cost doesn't necessarily mean more options. Before you read this next paragraph, please give it a serious go to work out which service you would use....

I chose Registered Post International. The interesting thing is this: in PayPals Seller Protection requirements, which method do you think they specifically recommend? That's right! Registered Post International. And, I'm sure you'll notice, that method is not trackable or item value insurable.

Let me be clear that I understand the buyer not receiving the item means that he will miss out, so I understand why he may entitled to receive Buyer Protection. And I feel for him - I really do. But - and this is the bit that really needs to be considered here - his rights to protection are completely separate to my rights for protection. And, having followed the requirements, I did not receive protection.

Do you still think the correct decision was made? Do you need more information for your decision?

 

[Juri]

the strange thing is: if you had not received an object buyed in ebay and payed with paypal and you would to start an "object not received" procedure, ebay move you on paypal site "since you used paypal" so how can ebay act for paypal?

 

[RED IMPACT]

the strange thing is: if you had not received an object buyed in ebay and payed with paypal and you would to start an "object not received" procedure, ebay move you on paypal site "since you used paypal" so how can ebay act for paypal?

Because at present PayPal is an eBay company.

 

[Astral]

the strange thing is: if you had not received an object buyed in ebay and payed with paypal and you would to start an "object not received" procedure, ebay move you on paypal site "since you used paypal" so how can ebay act for paypal?

That's a bloody good question! My understanding is the same as yours. In my case the claim was raised with eBay. eBay investigated. eBay took the money from PayPal. eBay gave the money back to the buyer. It was not a PayPal decision. It was *via* PayPal. At no stage was the claim escalated for PayPal to decide on.

As Red Impact stated - PayPal and eBay are separate companies - at least legally, but not functionally! The frustrating thing about this is that I should have been protected by PayPal. But when it was convenient for eBay to exercise power over PayPal by controlling the funds, it seemed to be irrelevant to PayPal, as they let eBay have access to the funds! If they were truly separate companies, eBay should not have been allowed to access the funds! It's just like this "we conveniently consider ourselves separate companies, but when it suits us we reserve the right to act as one".

(Please keep in mind I am still being careful what to type as I am aware of AmiBay's anti eBay complaint policy. I feel this needs to be discussed as, just like I stated previously, by being a PayPal user you may still not be protected when acting honourably. I feel AmiBay users need to be warned).

 

[Snoozy]

You chose an expensive item on an uninsured service to send overseas ?!

I'm afraid I agree with Shambles, the saving you make is alongside the risk you take if the transaction falls apart.

Personally I think expensive items should be insured and the buyer/seller each absorb 50% cost of the insurance, only then can there be relative peace of mind in the transaction

 

[Astral]

You chose an expensive item on an uninsured service to send overseas ?!

I'm afraid I agree with Shambles, the saving you make is alongside the risk you take if the transaction falls apart.

Personally I think expensive items should be insured and the buyer/seller each absorb 50% cost of the insurance, only then can there be relative peace of mind in the transaction

I chose the postage method that PayPal specifically recommended.

 

[-Acid-]

People do realise that Paypal is owned by eBay right? it's the same company (even though they announced recently they were spitting again but it will still have the same owners).