Best CPU for a demo-machine

[UberFreak]

Hi

My main interest is currently watching demos, starting from A500 ones up until the most recent ones.
As I dont expect to be able to afford a 060 accelerator any time in the foreseeable future, I'll have to make do with what I've got now:

A4000/30 @25Mhz w/16MB fast-ram
A1200/30 @40Mhz w/8MB fast-ram

I might be able to get an A3640 for the A4000, but I know it has compatibility problems with old stuff & also problematic chip-ram access.
Is it better to stay with the 030 in the A4000?

Will an 040@25Mhz be faster than the 030@40Mhz in my A1200?

Thanx

 

[RedDaemonFox]

The 040 at 25mhz will be HOTTER, but it runs about 2x the speed of a 50mhz 030. The 3640 is a good cheap 040 option, but is better in a 3k, a the 4k will be better with the 030

 

[r0jaws]

The 040 will be faster than the 030 even though it has a lower clock speed due to it's architecture.

That is only a generalisation though, have a look HERE for an idea of comparative speeds.

I'm sure one of the more knowledgeable guys will be along shortly to explain in more detail exactly why this is so.

 

[UberFreak]

According to that link, the Appolo 1240/30 is slightly faster than a Blizzard 1230/50, so an 1240/25 will be very close in performance to a 1230/50.

Considering the heat problems of the 040 (forgot all about that!) it might not be such a good idea after all...

Looking at the numbers for 060 makes me wanna cry

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

Just noticed the numbers for chip-ram access!
The 040 reads/writes it slower than an 030.

It even writes chip-ram slower than a stock 1200

---------- Post added at 22:58 ---------- Previous post was at 22:56 ----------

I see 060 has the same problem though...

 

[rkauer]

There is no 040/25 solutions available for A1200. And even a 040/33 (rare option, most accelerators are 40MHz) will run circles around a 030/50.

 

[Zetr0]

According to that link, the Appolo 1240/30 is slightly faster than a Blizzard 1230/50, so an 1240/25 will be very close in performance to a 1230/50.

Considering the heat problems of the 040 (forgot all about that!) it might not be such a good idea after all...

I reviewed the graph and the numbers a little strange in all truth - besides that theres lots to consider here other than in sheer raw dhrystones by SysInfo (dhrystones are not MIPS persay but close enough)

9,500 - Blizzard 030@50
18,600 - Apollo 040@25
26,000 - Apollo 040@40

Its best to note here that SysInfo wont make use of the secondary ALU on the 060 as such it will only see a little over 38,000 Dhrystones @ 50hz- to give you the manufactures statement (a 66mhz 060 will perform over 100 MIPS) theres lots in this bench testing m'larky -

Alas that lot is only half the story - the next (and biggest) part is the memory handling speeds (fast 2 chip & chip 3 fast), the integer engine(s) and the all inportant (you forgot it) FPU (MFLOPS) the 030 needs an FPU the 040 has an FPU engine built in, and when you get hold of "HSMaths" the 040/060 fpu engine better than an 68882 of the same frequency

in a nutshell 95% of Demo's - like games are written to run on less than an 030@50 its only those power demo's and apps that demand the horse power sir

talking about heat - an 040@25 whops out about the same as an 030@50, due to the Apollo 040 design, the cpu unit is in a *dead* air space as such needs an low-powered active cooling unit - in retrospect the blizzard 040 is in the opposite orientation as such dissapates it heat differently and as there is a small air gap usually just a heatsink is require.

Its important to note that different revisions of each CPU exist, as such MC units run much cooler than XC units - infact the latest generation of 040 CPU's run cool to the touch at 40mhz.

so whats good for you - well this is where you need to rationalize what you want. personally I would plum for the A4000 - 040@25 or higher - the general performace gain is much better than a 50mhz 030

compatability on the other hand might be a factor, however I have not really experieneced these *040 or 060 issues* i read about -

the beauty of all the moto series accelerators 020/030/040/060 is that you can turn portions of the CPU on and off on the fly - including branching, cache(s) etc. lots to play with...

Looking at the numbers for 060 makes me wanna cry

sell your soul to satan and I am sure you could get one =D

 

[Zetr0]

Just noticed the numbers for chip-ram access!
The 040 reads/writes it slower than an 030.

It even writes chip-ram slower than a stock 1200 :-o

---------- Post added at 22:58 ---------- Previous post was at 22:56 ----------

I see 060 has the same problem though...

okay... dont take these numbers as defacto - theres lots to play here.... motherboard revisions and acclerator card freqencies and logic delays.

Get as bigger range of tests as possible, in my experience AIBB is a little off - to say the lest.

 

[UberFreak]

@Zetr0:

My only option (if things go my way) is a standard A3640 (most likely a v3.0).

Most demos I've tried from the 2nd half of the 90s feature lots of effects that run very slowly on my 40Mhz 030.
As years go by more & more demos are made specifically for the 060, my only option with those is an emulator.

I was very lucky with Amiga gear so far, got most of it for flea-market prices or free, but I guess my luck has ran out...
I wish getting an 060 was as simple as selling my soul to satan

 

[MagerValp]

Will an 040@25Mhz be faster than the 030@40Mhz in my A1200?

Short answer: yes, and it'll allow you to run a bunch of demos that won't work on an 030, although at a framerate that is noticably worse than on an 060. The 16 MB limit will make it impossible to run a few demos though.

 

[UberFreak]

Thanx for all the replies!

Hopefully I can get that A3640

 

[tiffers]

There is no 040/25 solutions available for A1200. And even a 040/33 (rare option, most accelerators are 40MHz) will run circles around a 030/50.

I have a Paragon '040 accelerator running at 28MHz

It's actually a '040/25 running at 28 (56MHz Oscillator)

I'm told this is a re-badged Apollo 1240.

Has the old logic chips tho, so can't upgrade to an '060 unless I find another board with a fried cpu but good logic chips... and how you'd ascertain that I'm not sure

 

[rkauer]

As I said, 040 boards other than 40MHz are a few, but they exists.

 

[matt020]

Looking at the numbers for 060 makes me wanna cry

sell your soul to satan and I am sure you could get one =D

That bad??

 

[UberFreak]

Well, for what they cost you can build a very very nice new PC.
Funny, when I got seriously into Amiga last year, I was sure I'll be able to build an 060 machine in no time.
I expected it to be cheap, not PC cheap of course, but similar to other popular C= machines like the C64.
I almost choked when I saw how much Amiga gear sells for...

Yes, I would sell my soul for one, but unfortunately it was already sold years ago

 

[MagerValp]

Blizzards and CyberStorms with 060 and SCSI have sold for *SOME* in the last 6 months - pretty reasonable for a top of the line accelerator IMHO.

 

[Kin Hell]

Blizzards and CyberStorms with 060 and SCSI have sold for *SOME* in the last 6 months - pretty reasonable for a top of the line accelerator IMHO.

Your comments could be construed as price drivnig m8. That is your opinion & is best kept to yourself.

Kin

 

[UberFreak]

They might be top-of-the-line accelerators, but in fact they're 11-15 years old pieces of HW that can die any minute.
Some of the parts are custom made & impossible to find, so repair might not be possible (there are multiple examples of this on various Amiga forums).

I cant afford to take a chance for this much money, but as long as there are people who are willing to, prices wont go down.
(Sorry for venting, I just find it very frustrating )

 

[Photon]

I think the 50 MHz 68060 with 64MB ram has been considered 'the platform we make demos for' for quite a few years now.

Many demos don't need that much ram, but I'd say 16MB is minimum for modern stuff. And ofc some demos will run on a 68030 or 68040, but compatibility is not 'top' even between different 68060 cards, so don't expect your 030/040 to be catered for. And ofc most will be very choppy if the do work.

Whatever you do, make sure you're using kick 3.1.

If you like pre-1995 demos, you should run them on a stock A1200 (AGA demos) or for OCS demos (mistakenly labeled 'ECS' everywhere) an A500 with 512k chip+512k trapdoor ram and kick 1.3.