I totally agree with what you say, however, as a seller myself quite often, the things we sell here are old and prone to failure or just darn difficult to setup. The problem lies with buyers that hit the dispute button as soon as they can't use the item properly (it's happened to me, not here on Amibay). So I think that has a little to do with why sellers prefer gift option sometimes. Only an observation though. But that been said, and as sardine very well put it, asses the situation and if your not 100% comfortable, don't dip your feet in the pool
High Value items for Sale on Amibay
- Thread starter Sardine
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I totally agree with what you say, however, as a seller myself quite often, the things we sell here are old and prone to failure or just darn difficult to setup. The problem lies with buyers that hit the dispute button as soon as they can't use the item properly (it's happened to me, not here on Amibay). So I think that has a little to do with why sellers prefer gift option sometimes. Only an observation though. But that been said, and as sardine very well put it, asses the situation and if your not 100% comfortable, don't dip your feet in the pool
@Pghulme
I see also your point very well as a view of a seller. I have to admit that only twice I have to use dispute button myself. Only two times when seller never post item. Other wise I'm very careful what I buy and whom. If there is a little change I don't get questions what I need or I get a bad feeling about the deal I'll walk way. Sense have never fail me. Both these options where I have use dispute button is situations like that when my sense told me that something is wrong and still buy. Lesson have been learn.
Regards,
JarppaK
I see also your point very well as a view of a seller. I have to admit that only twice I have to use dispute button myself. Only two times when seller never post item. Other wise I'm very careful what I buy and whom. If there is a little change I don't get questions what I need or I get a bad feeling about the deal I'll walk way. Sense have never fail me. Both these options where I have use dispute button is situations like that when my sense told me that something is wrong and still buy. Lesson have been learn.
Regards,
JarppaK
reasons for "Gift" payment
1:- you know the person and trust this person.
2:- the item your buying is marked as faulty / untested and "gift" only to protect the seller
3:- its a very low amount and if you loose a few € it dont matter.
4:- you're avoiding import duty as the item was paid for by Gift and marked as Gift or very low value written on customs forms.
5:- you're an idiot sending €2000 to a stranger you dont know as gift payment with low feedback / post count. (Hey I found a Blizzard PPC card in my loft, no way to test it sold as is) or (forgot about my A4000 PPC RTG setup in the loft and need to sell it) << rings a bell , How do you forget about items worth €1000 - €3000 ?? I know exactly what's in my loft, its all the crap around the house I hide up there worth nothing
1:- you know the person and trust this person.
2:- the item your buying is marked as faulty / untested and "gift" only to protect the seller
3:- its a very low amount and if you loose a few € it dont matter.
4:- you're avoiding import duty as the item was paid for by Gift and marked as Gift or very low value written on customs forms.
5:- you're an idiot sending €2000 to a stranger you dont know as gift payment with low feedback / post count. (Hey I found a Blizzard PPC card in my loft, no way to test it sold as is) or (forgot about my A4000 PPC RTG setup in the loft and need to sell it) << rings a bell , How do you forget about items worth €1000 - €3000 ?? I know exactly what's in my loft, its all the crap around the house I hide up there worth nothing
I reckon the "Common Sense Switch" should be turned on for any high value transaction... 
http://www.screw-paypal.com/paypal_fraud/protection_exposed.html
http://www.screw-paypal.com/paypal_fraud/protection_exposed.html
That´s sad, actually. I´m unable to think why a person with such reputation acts like a mere thief. Desperation, need or simple greed, who knows.
D
Deleted member 14264
Guest
I don't know what to think of that.reasons for "Gift" payment
1:- you know the person and trust this person.
2:- the item your buying is marked as faulty / untested and "gift" only to protect the seller
3:- its a very low amount and if you loose a few € it dont matter.
4:- you're avoiding import duty as the item was paid for by Gift and marked as Gift or very low value written on customs forms.
5:- you're an idiot sending €2000 to a stranger you dont know as gift payment with low feedback / post count. (Hey I found a Blizzard PPC card in my loft, no way to test it sold as is) or (forgot about my A4000 PPC RTG setup in the loft and need to sell it) << rings a bell , How do you forget about items worth €1000 - €3000 ?? I know exactly what's in my loft, its all the crap around the house I hide up there worth nothing
In the past, I didn't know why sellers insisted on Paypal "Gift" payments. Since the problems I had with ---- I have a very different point of view. Paypal offers far more protection to buyers than sellers.
When a payment is sent as gift, there is no buyer protection but there is also no possibility of a buyer filing a fraudulent claim against you.
Of course in the case of expensive items, there is more of an incentive to send it using tracking and signature which does provide proof of shipment and reception. My advice to sellers; dearly hold on to it!
IMHO, if there was a serious incident with a fraudulent seller, you should open an advisory thread about this person and make his personal information public. Perhaps in a forum section only visible to logged on members.
This may not get the money back but at least it will warn other potential victims.
Note to mods: Not only was the name of the person who stole me a sold item was removed, the modus operandi he used was also removed, all of it without informing me.
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sprcorreia
New member
This debate can go on forever.
I usually sell with paypal gift. I have no problem with receiving payment with the fees. But since that method adds protection to buyer I must ensure that I add protection to myself. And that costs money. Sending something insured adds quite a bit to the price, and not always buyers want to spend the extra.
I always try my best to test the part I'm selling, I make videos of it working and send a link to the buyer. When I don't test a feature I try to be as honest as possible. I insist sending stuff registered and tracked, but there is always someone that wants to save a few euros and wants regular mail. If I can't even send registered how can I accept that the buyer gets protection?
I believe dialog is key.
I usually sell with paypal gift. I have no problem with receiving payment with the fees. But since that method adds protection to buyer I must ensure that I add protection to myself. And that costs money. Sending something insured adds quite a bit to the price, and not always buyers want to spend the extra.
I always try my best to test the part I'm selling, I make videos of it working and send a link to the buyer. When I don't test a feature I try to be as honest as possible. I insist sending stuff registered and tracked, but there is always someone that wants to save a few euros and wants regular mail. If I can't even send registered how can I accept that the buyer gets protection?
I believe dialog is key.
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ABSOLUTELY NEVER here at Amibay, we DO NOT name and shame....
we only have had to ONCE name a person and it was ONLY their "USERNAME" never their full name,, Address and phone number ,, Really!! come on!!!
oh:the ONLY time we give personal details is too the Police or Action Fraud
^^ What Sardine said ^^
We are bound by the Data Protection Act in the UK and we have to keep personal details of our members secure. The only times we can disclose member details to other parties are:-
1. To a recognised enforcement agency, e.g. the Police, Action Fraud etc. if we believe that a crime or fraud has been committed that we need to report;
2. Under a direct request for information from a law enforcement agency, as above; or
3. To parties directly involved in a crime or fraud that we are investigating, and then only under private cover.
We NEVER disclose private information on the open forum, not without seeking the person's explicit consent to do so first. Even when we have wanted to disclose details, we have had to be bound by the DPA and respect the law on private data. All forums should respect this as they are defined as Data Controllers under the Act.
Anyone disclosing another member's private details in the open forum leaves themselves open to being frozen, or more likely, banned.
We are bound by the Data Protection Act in the UK and we have to keep personal details of our members secure. The only times we can disclose member details to other parties are:-
1. To a recognised enforcement agency, e.g. the Police, Action Fraud etc. if we believe that a crime or fraud has been committed that we need to report;
2. Under a direct request for information from a law enforcement agency, as above; or
3. To parties directly involved in a crime or fraud that we are investigating, and then only under private cover.
We NEVER disclose private information on the open forum, not without seeking the person's explicit consent to do so first. Even when we have wanted to disclose details, we have had to be bound by the DPA and respect the law on private data. All forums should respect this as they are defined as Data Controllers under the Act.
Anyone disclosing another member's private details in the open forum leaves themselves open to being frozen, or more likely, banned.
D
Deleted member 14264
Guest
Precisely my point.
We thrashed this out years ago when we wrote the site rules. The buyer pays by a recorded means such as PayPal with the fees paid. The seller sends it by a recorded means, i.e. by courier or registered mail with a signature required. Both parties are protected under this arrangement.
It's only when this guidance gets bent by members that things start to go pear-shaped.
It's only when this guidance gets bent by members that things start to go pear-shaped.
D
Deleted member 14264
Guest
Did you notice some people are selling Easy Flash 3 cartridges on Amibay ? New ones, I mean.
That's because Jim Brain sells them through his online shop strictly with registered mail and this involves a very expensive cost of shipment to all European buyers. Go4retro is located in the U.S.
I am in Canada and presently, I ship to US and European buyers using Canada Post's Light Packet service for mostly everything I sell - this service doesn't offer tracking or signature on reception. The cost for shipping to the U.S. is 5.78$CAD, Europe is 8.70$CAD - if you add to that the cost of the packaging, the static protective material and sleeve, you end up with something close to 6$US for US shipments and 7 Euros for EU shipments. My most popular item is PLAnkton which I sell for 15.50$US or 14 Euros and more than half of my orders are for one unit only.
Now consider the least expensive tracked shipping service Canada Post offers for the US is 16.85$CAD, Europe is 47.30$CAD - it's up to double the value of the purchased item. If I use tracked shipping I might as well stop selling completely, I am just plain out of business. There is no way I can charge that much to my customers.
That's why PLAnkton was never offered on eBay and most likely never will be.
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^^ although i guess a very thought out post can we please stay on topic, this thread was to give a gentle reminder to those quite willing to send €2000 to a stranger without any protection.
D
Deleted member 14264
Guest
I fully agree that buyers seeking to acquire expensive retrocomputing items should never send payments as "Gift".
There is also an advantage to the seller - should a defect be discovered just before shipping the item, it is always possible to refund the buyer if the payment was sent "for goods" - not so with "gift".
You can refund a gift payment, just send another gift payment back. Essentially its about being sensible and honest, it cuts both ways, both buyer and seller. Unfortunately not everyone in this world has the ability or willing to play using common sense and honesty... again both sides.
@eslapion
Amibay does provide the "Hall Of Shame" for members which have negative feedback ratings:
https://www.amibay.com/itrader_main.php?
Unfortunately, the buyer neglected to use common sense in realizing he would not be able to leave feedback on deal he made completely via PM.
@wmsteele
I'm not sure what options are available to UK Paypal users, but I have the option to refund a Paypal Gift payment here in the US.
Amibay does provide the "Hall Of Shame" for members which have negative feedback ratings:
https://www.amibay.com/itrader_main.php?
Unfortunately, the buyer neglected to use common sense in realizing he would not be able to leave feedback on deal he made completely via PM.
@wmsteele
I'm not sure what options are available to UK Paypal users, but I have the option to refund a Paypal Gift payment here in the US.
As I mentioned in the second post I was in the middle of a problem, now it's closed here is the story:
This started off life on ebay (there was photos in the first listing but they are not here on the relisted item) where this guy had listed an Amiga 4000T for sale in auction format, his location was given as Jarrow which is under 5 miles away from where I live (it's literally the next town over) but the listing suddenly disappeared before the auction was scheduled to end.
I decided to contact the seller to see what had happened and he eventually got back to me five days later and said the listing had been closed by ebay because there was some copied cd's in the listing but he intended to remove them and relist it. I thought okay that's fair enough and made him an offer which he accepted.
I offered to come and collect it and pay in cash at the same time but he said that although ebay said it was in Jarrow, he was in fact now living in Southampton (being a same day courier by trade I would still have preferred to drive the 300 mile to collect it or get it brought back by someone else rather than let Hermes or Yodel loose on an item of this value). Any way he said he wanted to post it and invoiced me on ebay and I paid him via paypal immediately.
Next I waited about seven days and heard absolutely nothing, no tracking number provided and no contact at all despite me sending messages asking what was going on. The next day I thought okay we're not talking pocket change here as you can imagine, so I opened a case on ebay to get his attention.
The next day he responded saying he had not got the money, it turned out his paypal account was brand new as well as his ebay account (alarm bells were sounding a bit at this point, but as i'm sure most of you reading this will understand... i wanted this computer!!). So paypal was holding the money for three weeks to make sure he wasn't on the rob (although he didn't realise this I think, it seems he thought it was just ebay holding the money), he should have sent the computer and then ebay would have released the money but he chose to refund me instead.
At the same time he responded to the case he responded to my messages I had been sending and told me he works offshore on a wind farm and doesn't have a phone signal or an internet connection while away (which I thought okay that's plausible), obviously the items that were on offer do not come up for sale very often so thought okay I would still like to buy the computer.
Again we agreed a price and he invoiced me on paypal instead cutting ebay out altogether to cut down on the fees. I paid the invoice but again paypal held the money saying it couldn't be accessed by him for three weeks. At this point I had given him my phone number so he could contact me away from ebay, to which he texted me a few times and texted back a couple of times. His last message spoke of the restriction on the money again and his intention to refund it again. It was at this point I decided to actually phone and speak to him.
On the phone he sounded like a nice enough bloke in his early fifties if I had to guess, knew about the Amiga and spoke of his intention to upgrade to PPC about a decade ago and some other stuff. He clearly knew what he was talking about when it came to the Mediator and other cards he had installed in this A4000T. By this stage I was convinced he was a genuine seller so said to him I was prepared to wait the three weeks until he could access the money and then he could send the computer once it was cleared to which he agreed.
The weeks passed over with me counting the days down to getting my hands on my dream Amiga. He emailed me on the twelfth of September saying he would be returning home on the fourteen and would be dispatching the computer on that day. At this point a mega doubt crept in, he just emailed me while apparently offshore somehow with no available internet connection. Three days passed with nothing happening so I was phoning him for some information every day sometimes two or three times a day but his phone was always switched off as it had been when he said he was away.
Then one of the next days when I called the phone actually rang... I thought at last if he really was an offshore worker maybe he had been stuck off working extra or bad weather or some other reasonable explanation. So the phone rang about seven times... then suddenly I hear "the mobile phone you have called is not available" (phone switched off or sim card removed while it was ringing?).
Due to the carrot of the hardware that was supposed to be coming my way I gave it another week hanging on to the faintest hope it might still turn out alright even though I knew it was over and this bloke was in all probability a scammer. I opened a case with paypal which lasted about a week in which he didn't reply once to the case (no surprise there then), today the outcome was decided in my favour and paypal refunded me in full.
If you look at what I was buying it's obvious we aren't talking about pocket change here but serious money with the first digit in the thousands column. In this case I knew I was safe from that start as I never once even contemplated paying for this without having paypal buyer protection.
Imagine how i'd be feeling right now if I had of paid him as a gift or bank transfer....
This started off life on ebay (there was photos in the first listing but they are not here on the relisted item) where this guy had listed an Amiga 4000T for sale in auction format, his location was given as Jarrow which is under 5 miles away from where I live (it's literally the next town over) but the listing suddenly disappeared before the auction was scheduled to end.
I decided to contact the seller to see what had happened and he eventually got back to me five days later and said the listing had been closed by ebay because there was some copied cd's in the listing but he intended to remove them and relist it. I thought okay that's fair enough and made him an offer which he accepted.
I offered to come and collect it and pay in cash at the same time but he said that although ebay said it was in Jarrow, he was in fact now living in Southampton (being a same day courier by trade I would still have preferred to drive the 300 mile to collect it or get it brought back by someone else rather than let Hermes or Yodel loose on an item of this value). Any way he said he wanted to post it and invoiced me on ebay and I paid him via paypal immediately.
Next I waited about seven days and heard absolutely nothing, no tracking number provided and no contact at all despite me sending messages asking what was going on. The next day I thought okay we're not talking pocket change here as you can imagine, so I opened a case on ebay to get his attention.
The next day he responded saying he had not got the money, it turned out his paypal account was brand new as well as his ebay account (alarm bells were sounding a bit at this point, but as i'm sure most of you reading this will understand... i wanted this computer!!). So paypal was holding the money for three weeks to make sure he wasn't on the rob (although he didn't realise this I think, it seems he thought it was just ebay holding the money), he should have sent the computer and then ebay would have released the money but he chose to refund me instead.
At the same time he responded to the case he responded to my messages I had been sending and told me he works offshore on a wind farm and doesn't have a phone signal or an internet connection while away (which I thought okay that's plausible), obviously the items that were on offer do not come up for sale very often so thought okay I would still like to buy the computer.
Again we agreed a price and he invoiced me on paypal instead cutting ebay out altogether to cut down on the fees. I paid the invoice but again paypal held the money saying it couldn't be accessed by him for three weeks. At this point I had given him my phone number so he could contact me away from ebay, to which he texted me a few times and texted back a couple of times. His last message spoke of the restriction on the money again and his intention to refund it again. It was at this point I decided to actually phone and speak to him.
On the phone he sounded like a nice enough bloke in his early fifties if I had to guess, knew about the Amiga and spoke of his intention to upgrade to PPC about a decade ago and some other stuff. He clearly knew what he was talking about when it came to the Mediator and other cards he had installed in this A4000T. By this stage I was convinced he was a genuine seller so said to him I was prepared to wait the three weeks until he could access the money and then he could send the computer once it was cleared to which he agreed.
The weeks passed over with me counting the days down to getting my hands on my dream Amiga. He emailed me on the twelfth of September saying he would be returning home on the fourteen and would be dispatching the computer on that day. At this point a mega doubt crept in, he just emailed me while apparently offshore somehow with no available internet connection. Three days passed with nothing happening so I was phoning him for some information every day sometimes two or three times a day but his phone was always switched off as it had been when he said he was away.
Then one of the next days when I called the phone actually rang... I thought at last if he really was an offshore worker maybe he had been stuck off working extra or bad weather or some other reasonable explanation. So the phone rang about seven times... then suddenly I hear "the mobile phone you have called is not available" (phone switched off or sim card removed while it was ringing?).
Due to the carrot of the hardware that was supposed to be coming my way I gave it another week hanging on to the faintest hope it might still turn out alright even though I knew it was over and this bloke was in all probability a scammer. I opened a case with paypal which lasted about a week in which he didn't reply once to the case (no surprise there then), today the outcome was decided in my favour and paypal refunded me in full.
If you look at what I was buying it's obvious we aren't talking about pocket change here but serious money with the first digit in the thousands column. In this case I knew I was safe from that start as I never once even contemplated paying for this without having paypal buyer protection.
Imagine how i'd be feeling right now if I had of paid him as a gift or bank transfer....
sprcorreia
New member
Ok, someone who you did not knew, a large amount of money, a shady location at best, come on... It only logical.
So reading all this, it seems I've been doing things a bit wrong. I've removed fees from my listings since both my buyers to date seemed far more keen doing things that way.
Would it be better or just safer to reinstate them? I also didn't realise that starting with a valuable item was going to be seen as a red flag, all I was thinking was that it was the thing the community would be most interested in.
Would it be better or just safer to reinstate them? I also didn't realise that starting with a valuable item was going to be seen as a red flag, all I was thinking was that it was the thing the community would be most interested in.
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I don't know about you but I do not know anyone on ebay or amibay personally that I buy things from, the location was hardly shady it's a 10 minute drive from my door (at least when it all started out). The whole point of the tale is to emphasise the importance of not paying with gift or bank transfer.
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