Closed MOS SID 6581 100% tested

[Flemming]

So, here is some observation from me. This is solely for the sake of interest on my part... Everybody, please do not freak out

The two MOS6581R4 i bought does not have any 'dimples' (ejector pin markings) on the top side they are practically flat/smooth (besides the notch which indicates chip orientation). This usually indicates that the chips have been sanded down and remarked. I thought i'd do some measuring on the height of the chips:

- MOS8580R5 (with dimples): 3,81mm
- MOS6581R4 (no dimples): 3,78mm

Of all the SID chips i have (i do have a few) these two 6581R4 are the only ones with no dimples, and they are slimmer than my other SIDs

Another strong indicator is their datecode: '3686', which they both have. Having several chips with similar datecode is usually very lucky. But then a friend linked me to this site ( http://kevtris.org/Projects/sid/remarked_sids.html ). The guy who owns that site obviously bought a handfull of 6581R4 with exactly the same datecode as mine - and he easily identifies them as being remarked.

Just to clarify: I am not making any accusations! No refunds, returns or anything like that! I am merely investigating and asking questions out of interest. That being said, if the chips are remarked, they should be sold as such, and it should be reflected in the price, so a partial refund might be in order.

I would like to hear from other buyers of the 6581R4 type:

- Is your datecode identical to mine (MOS6581R4 3686)?
- Does the thickness/height of the chip match the height of your other SIDs?
- Dimples or no dimples?

Here is a photo of the two 6581R4 (no dimples) along with the 8580R5 (yes dimples)




And here is a photo from Stone Oakvalley's site, where the dimples are very obvious and the printing is different from the ones above

 

[mic72]

So, here is some observation from me. This is solely for the sake of interest on my part... Everybody, please do not freak out
This usually indicates that the chips have been sanded down and remarked. I thought i'd do some measuring on the height of the chips:

Another strong indicator is their datecode: '3686', which they both have. Having several chips with similar datecode is usually very lucky. But then a friend linked me to this site ( http://kevtris.org/Projects/sid/remarked_sids.html ). The guy who owns that site obviously bought a handfull of 6581R4 with exactly the same datecode as mine - and he easily identifies them as being remarked.

Sorry... "please do not freak out " - but what you see is bullshit or just half-knowledge. I have >1000 SIDs here! And of course many of them have identical date codes.
By coincidence C= produced more than one SID per week I was told from a reliable source. :shhh:
If you buy SIDs in the usual antistatic rods (like I did) they will almost always have the same date code.
And even better: C= didn't produce SIDs every week but in batches. That means: Certain date codes even do not exist on SIDs at all...

And now even worse: C= packaged their chips in different factories - so there even exist different cases/housing:

http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/das_SID.jpg
http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/das_SID2.jpg

There are two strong indicators for remarked chips: New printing (e.g. clear white or grey/brown) and the bottom side with no printing.
Please take a picture of the bottom site of the chips I've sent to you and post it here! (However the couterfeits got better... bottom printing occurs now too: But it's perfectly white. Just too perfect!)

Just to clarify: I am not making any accusations! No refunds, returns or anything like that! I am merely investigating and asking questions out of interest. That being said, if the chips are remarked, they should be sold as such, and it should be reflected in the price, so a partial refund might be in order.

Here is a photo of the two 6581R4 (no dimples) along with the 8580R5 (yes dimples)

View attachment 88664

I'd happy to give a refund... just send all the SIDs back to me and we'll both be much happier!
I'm sure there will be others who do not question authenticity of the chips!

ps: All SIDs packaged on the Phillipines are missing the dimples! Maybe C= bought fakes in the 80s already????
pps: If you are solely interested in the matters you shouldn't use suggestive sentences like "strong indicator" etc.

- - - Updated - - -

More pictures from SIDs packaged on the Phillipines or just missing the dimples:

https://nuxx.net/gallery/d/43374-9/IMG_2334.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/8580R5_USA.jpg/220px-8580R5_USA.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/6582A.jpg/220px-6582A.jpg

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/1155985954/6581R4.jpg


Even PLA were produced in different factories:

http://www.nightfallcrew.com/wp-content/gallery/replacement-pla-for-commodore-64/img_3123.jpg

Also no dimples...

 

[Flemming]

I just got a notice that i got a 'negative rating' It says: "Makes false accusations and draws wrong conclusions!". That is not a reting. It is a personal statement!

To be clear, i did not make any accusations! You might think that my conclusions are wrong, but that has no impact on our trade at all - You got the money, and i got the goods. No problems Now i'm just asking questions, and i even do it in a polite way. I'm not sure why you come at me in such an aggressive way, again. Especially when your goods are fine.

Just to be clear, the picture you link does not say anything about the chips being true or false.

So i guess a lot of people experienced SID chips in their C64 with no dimples. Maybe someone could verify this for me?

 

[mic72]

Just to be clear, the picture you link does not say anything about the chips being true or false.
So i guess a lot of people experienced SID chips in their C64 with no dimples. Maybe someone could verify this for me?

The picture does not say anything but YOU do: "... a strong indicator ..." implies that these chips must be remarked (which is 100% wrong!).

So please do me a favour: Return the SIDs and buy them somewhere else! I will send refund for the chips and postage.

ps: Taking the measures of two different kind of chips packaged at different times and in different factories as an indicator
is like comparing two cars of the same brand but one before and the other after facelift... OMG

pps: I gave a negative rating because the way you're discussing the matters will definitely have an impact on my sales. I don't care too much because I do not earn money with the SIDs (just getting rid of excessive stock bought over the years). But other sellers might care!

ppps: The fake chips at kevtris site have the same date code as your chips but obviously a different package! Did you ever consider that the guys faking SIDs took a real SOD as a blueprint for their fake printing? Take a look at the bottom printing: I bet it's different! (Fakes have same printing on top AND bottom).

 

[Flemming]

First, i think the impact on your sale will be mostly from the aggressive way you come at me, just for asking simple questions! If i were wrong and you were right, then you had no worries and no reason to get angry with me in the first place.

I didn't give you a negative rating of any sorts. I am asking questions to clarify. A natural way to handle this would be to talk about it, but you choose to attack me... you did this once before, when i asked a question via PM, and you felt the need to go and post in this thread, issue refunds i never asked for. So this time i thought "let's just have an open talk about this from the start". Now the response is even more aggressive, and i even got a negative rating

Second, i must say that i am very sorry, for this https://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?70147-MOS-SID-6581-100-tested&p=696290&viewfull=1#post696290

I spoke to a real SID guru who told me to test thoroughly once more, and this was what i found out:

Sid nr 1 (6581R4) Listen: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wv21d7f0zcmhmje/record1.mp3?dl=0
Dead filter. Let it get past the intro and you will hear the volume dissapear as soon as the filter is turned on. Later in the tune you can hear the filter click like crazy every time it is turned on/off.

Sid nr 2 (6581R4) Listen: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h43dympqx0ursci/record2.mp3?dl=0
This one plays just fine, also filter. But it does not sound like an R4. It sounds like an R2.

To compare, here are links for SOASC:

SOASC (6581R4) Listen: http://www.se2a1.net/soasc/dl.php?d...e/Dane/Edge_of_Disgrace_T01.sid_MOS6581R4.mp3
SOASC (6581R2) Listen: http://www.se2a1.net/soasc/dl.php?d...e/Dane/Edge_of_Disgrace_T01.sid_MOS6581R2.mp3

The R2 @ SOASC sounds exactly like the R4 i got from you.

Anyways, even if the chips are from same country, same factory, same datecode and everything, they do not sound alike. Not even if the filter worked. That is odd, i think.

These chips are clearly pulled, both of them. They have even had their pins re-tinned to make them look good. If they were put in an anti static tube afterwards i don't know, but it's not like they're NOS or anything.

With all the above in mind, i think i actually will take your offer for a refund of the two 6581R4 SIDs. That will be 2 * 13euros + 6euros shipping = 32euros

Also, i will need your address so i can return the chips. Please send it to me as PM.

Thanks!

 

[mic72]

I spoke to a real SID guru who told me to test thoroughly once more, and this was what i found out:

If your friend would be a SID guru he would know that it is impossible cannot distinguish R2 from R3 or R4 (or R4AR). Point!

PM with address will follow.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyways, even if the chips are from same country, same factory, same datecode and everything, they do not sound alike.

This is the usual behavior of all(!) 6581... your SID guru should know that! (In fact: This was the reason why I started collecting them.)

 

[demolition]

I got around to testing the chips now and at least two of the three SIDs I received have broken filters (I need to listen closely to the 1st one again to verify if it is good or not). Will send PM to ask for clarification.

After some more testing I can verify that the filters are all working although quite distorted but that it may be within the quite large tolerances of the 6581. I have listened to some of my other 6581s and some have similar distortion, so I do not think it is uncommon. Thus, I have decided to keep all three SIDs.

 

[DonChaos]

I like to buy some.
Are they still available ?

 

[dean7878]

Declaring interest in 5. Prefer R4 or R4AR. Thanks.

 

[mic72]

I like to buy some.
Are they still available ?

Yes.

- - - Updated - - -

Declaring interest in 5. Prefer R4 or R4AR. Thanks.

Pm sent

 

[mic72]

Declaring interest in 5. Prefer R4 or R4AR. Thanks.

Money received... will ship out 5x 6581R4AR asap.

 

[keropi]

interested for 1x6581, PM sent

 

[mic72]

interested for 1x6581, PM sent

PM sent

 

[EFTPOTRM]

If still available I would like to order:

1× 6581R4 or 6581R4AR
1× 8580R5

Thank you!

 

[mic72]

Money received; sending out R4AR to keropi.

 

[dean7878]

SIDs received. I tested them and they are working great! Positive feedback left. Thanks.

 

[jredfern]

Hi folks!

I'm interested to buy a good working 6581 r3, but I'm curious about how much testing has been done on these chips. Often faulty SID chips will not reveal their faults just by playing some games, since broken filters will only affect a small portion of game music.

There's a very good test by Plogue R&D called "sidbench" which cycles through and plays a note each voice using all different filter and ring mod settings - you can clearly hear if there's a problem with the SID. I'd be very interested to hear the results of running sidbench on the chips that people have bought, it's free to download (see below) and would be a great benefit to this thread to have recordings of the SIDs, could you make some recordings dean7878?

http://alk.untergrund.net/SID/sidbench1.prg
http://alk.untergrund.net/SID/sidbench1.d64
http://alk.untergrund.net/SID/sidbench1.tap
http://alk.untergrund.net/SID/sidbench1.wav

Here's some examples of recordings of good SIDs using sidbench:

http://plogue.com/davidv/sidbench/6581R4AR.mp3
http://plogue.com/davidv/sidbench/6581CBM.mp3
http://plogue.com/davidv/sidbench/8580R5.mp3

and some faulty ones:

http://plogue.com/davidv/sidbench/6581_remarked2.mp3
http://plogue.com/davidv/sidbench/6581_remarked3.mp3

More info about sidbench here: http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.ie/2010/05/one-page-basic-sid-benchmark.html

I noticed on the page linked earlier about remarked SIDs, that Kevtris had seen multiple SIDs with the same numbers as some of the SIDs received by Flemming earlier in this thread (6581 3686 S), and that by using some acetone wiped on the SIDs he had revealed that the chips had been covered in black paint and remarked - he could see the original version numbers revealed under the black paint (which aren't susceptable to acetone). If these are the same remarked SIDs I'm sure they not being sold intentionally. I really hope that they aren't the same ones, but has anyone tried?

More info about the remarked SIDs here: http://kevtris.org/Projects/sid/remarked_sids.html

I spoke to Kevtris and he thinks that companies which bought up lots of c64s and SIDs to produce SID based music hardware had culled lots of SIDs and then sold on faulty ones. These had then been remarked, the legs tinned and sold on as "new". Obviously this makes me a bit anxious about buying SIDs nowadays. With sidbench recordings of the SIDs there would be no need for customers to worry - perhaps it would be possible to sidbench each SID before sale. Could you do this Mic72? I'll be happy to pay an extra $10 for the service!

Jim

 

[EFTPOTRM]

Money sent for both a 6581R4AR and an 8580R5.

 

[mic72]

Money sent for both a 6581R4AR and an 8580R5.

Money received! Thanks. Will ship out tuesday or wednesday.

- - - Updated - - -

Could you do this Mic72? I'll be happy to pay an extra $10 for the service!
Jim

Dear Jim,
the software I'm using to test the SIDs is quite similar to sidbench... that means: No need to pay extra $10 to get SIDs tested before
shipping. In fact it takes ~2 days before I ship SIDs because I test themto ensure they are ok.
As I provide a full DOA guarantee and payment via paypal (Buyer protection!!!!) I'm more than interested not to sell fakes, refurbs etc. ;-)

I guess that the printing of some "6581" with d/c 3686S (as sold to flemming) was used as a template for the refurbs kevtris complained about.

Just a small note: I don't know how many SIDs kevtris ever bought... but after having collected more than 1000-1500 SIDs *I* know how to
make out "real SIDs" from fakes/refurb/counterfeits and the chips I sold are definitely not of that kind. Point!

ps: I've even sent to picutures of reprionted SIDs to kevtris some tim ago... unfortunately he didn't put them on his website.
Anyway: There are reprinted/refurbs out there which are working perfectly (all oscillators+all filters) but I even deny to sell
these... I received some in the past but I returned them to the sender!

 

[ZippyZapp]

Declaring Interest in 3x 6581R4AR
Thanks!

PM Sent

Edit: Upped to 3 instead of 2, if possible. Forgot about my stereo SID!