PayPal Fees Rules?

[fitzsteve]

Applies to both businesses and individual (non-business) sellers. Again, according to the PayPal Canada rules. So may be different elsewhere.

Regardless, I was just a bit confused that here on AmiBay there is such a comprehensive and effective rules set for buying and selling but that the PayPal Friends and Family thing was kind of being ignored. And, again, I understand that it is a PayPal rule. So it is left up to the buyer and seller to work it out.

Amibay in my experience have left how the item is paid for down to the buyer and seller, I mean if we agreed I could pay you in magic beans lol

 

[miggymad]

Here's what Paypal has to say on the matter ... Taken from their "help" articles and reproduced here for posterity.

What’s the difference between friends and family payments and goods and services payments?

Goods and services payments are intended for commercial payments, for example, when you’re buying or selling art online, or paying your hairstylist. Eligible goods and services payments include Purchase Protection, which can protect the buyer and seller in case something goes wrong with a purchase, and includes a small fee paid by the seller. You should select this payment type when you’re paying a business, and if the person you’re paying has a Business account, it’ll be automatically selected.

Friends and family payments are personal payments between two individuals for something like splitting a dinner bill. These payments can be made without fees for the sender and receiver.

 

[darefail]

Here's what Paypal has to say on the matter ... Taken from their "help" articles and reproduced here for posterity.

...or paying your hairstylist... ...which can protect the buyer and seller in case something goes wrong with the hair styling

 

[qz3fwd]

PP F&F might be beneficial from tax purposes for sellers, as otherwise the payments look like a (taxable) business transaction. Which sellers are running businesses is debatable and buyers have no way that I am aware of in making that determination.

When I first became a member here I was shocked by the prevalence of F&F, but shortly saw who the reputable sellers were/are and have no qualms even buying built replica motherboards this way. Would I use F&F for a high dollar item from a new seller? No. It is a call you have to make for every transaction.

 

[Sardine]

Amibay does NOT police the payment methods.

we simple ask for caution especially from "New Members" and to "try" and use a protected payment method.

but you can pay in sheep , magic beans or chocolate cookie, just be careful sending a LOT of chocolate cookie at once to basically a stranger on the other side of the Planet.

BUT!!!!!!! what everyone has missed is.

F&F also protects a SELLER from a NEW member and once receiving the goods claiming it wasn't as described , lost or damaged when in fact it arrived safe and sound. scammers.

There are some VERY respected sellers here and selling a $2000 item to a New Member is very risky. So as good and services can go against a seller when the buyer is fraudulent.

The whole reason why we use the feedback system, I have a 100% feedback and a score around 255, so if I sell you a $10000 as F&F it's a pretty safe sale, the opposite is a seller with 80% feedback and 6 sales then you need to read the feedback and judge youself if you should send that person $10000 as F&F

keep safe when pressing "Send Funds" to a stranger when your guard is down for that Unicorn Item you've been after.

 

[Boing-ball]

The only reason I ask for PayPal F&F or bank transfer is because with PayPal with fees, it can depend on what fees have to be paid by the buyer. Been stung when the right amount of fees by the buyer or vice versa isn’t right. I get it, that people want protection from fraud etc.. Just personally find the F&F option easier. I don’t come across an issue when using such a payment method. But as @miggymad eluded to, this should be a safe place for members to trade with. I have witnessed on another forum ( *Cough* EAB *Cough*) where someone paid for something and it wasn’t sent via PayPal F&F Nothing was done about it….

 

[Sardine]

there is nothing Amibay can do ( and happened in the past quite recently ) to get your money back, sending as F&F to save money can cost the buyer a LOT of money. It's not worth avoiding fees when you send to a stranger a lot of money.

We have also been successful with the aid of f.a.c.t. and some of our overseas members in tracking down individual's 2 such cases lead to prosecutions and a few other investigations with the threat of prosecution gave refunds to avoid the authorities,

we used to run a hall of shame known scammers etc, not sure if that's still a thing now


I only do F&F if it's a low amount that I can live without if the seller does a runner with my money or if it's a seller I trust. ANY of the staff and quite a few members here I wouldnt hesitate to send $2000 as F&F but there are some I would insist as goods or I walk away from the sale.

 

[AmigaPete]

The only reason I ask for PayPal F&F or bank transfer is because with PayPal with fees, it can depend on what fees have to be paid by the buyer.

That is kind of my point... according to PayPal, the way I understand it is that the buyer (of goods and/or services) is responsible for only the purchase price of said goods and/or services, and that all PayPal fees are to be paid by the seller. And, if a seller asks the buyer to pay the fees or an additional 4% it is against PayPal terms of service agreement for both businesses and individuals (non-businesses).

 

[ratfink]

From the UK paypal user agreement:

 

[SilkWorm]

From the UK paypal user agreement:
View attachment 2508633

So, as long as you clearly inform buyer about surcharging, you are free to surcharge?

 

[Picard]

Yes, I should have included that specifically when selling an item or service that the seller cannot ask the buyer to pay with Friends and Family.

But you can pay using PayPay with protection just add PayPal fee. I fail to see your problem.
Just add fee and pay according to PayPal rules for merchandise.
Many online shops (and as far as I know EVERY amiga on-line shop) adds PayPal fee when you are using PayPal as payment method.
Try to buy at Amigastore, icomp, amigakit, you name it - everywhere you will have "additional paypal fee" added to your price that you must cover.
Really don't know what's the fuss about?

 

[Sardine]

Remember we are not a shop or a business so you can’t compare us to any online shop.

We simply join together 2 people to trade items for whatever currency they choose whether it's for another item , money or chocolate cookies.

@davideo i don’t know how or if i can, move all these posts to their own thread in general chat rather than me tidying up later as this has very much polluted this sales thread.

Sorry i meant this thread

Sold - CyberstormPPC - Deneb USB - PIcasso IV + Concierto Module

Hi again with proof of ownership. I have for sale: - CyberstormPPC 604/233Mhz/060/50Mhz (rev.5) 128 MB Ram + Ariadne II.//////////// PRICE - 1400 pounds + shipping cost (was 1800 pounds)./////////////////////////////// SOLD to Stachu100. /- Picasso IV with audio module...

www.amibay.com

Taa!!

 

[SilkWorm]

this has very much polluted this sales thread

It is not a sales thread, it is a general discussion.

 

[SilkWorm]

Really don't know what's the fuss about?

It seems in some local country PayPal user agreements. PayPal explicitly says you as a seller cannot demand a surcharge from a buyer to avoid a PayPal transaction fee.

Personally, when I am buying something more expensive or from a seller with low rating, I am doing one Goods and Services payment, and then a second one as F&F to pay the fee (only of the buyer requests that in the advert).

Of course, as you've written, online Amiga stores do exactly opposite, like this one.

 

[Picard]

That's why as example I showed shops from different coutriers: AmigaStore - Spain, icomp - Germany, AmigaKit - UK.
Maybe it's European thing but it is indeed very popular here in Europe to surcharge buyer to cover these fees.

 

[davideo]

@davideo i don’t know how or if i can, move all these posts to their own thread in general chat rather than me tidying up later as this has very much polluted this sales thread.

Sorry i meant this thread

Sold - CyberstormPPC - Deneb USB - PIcasso IV + Concierto Module

Hi again with proof of ownership. I have for sale: - CyberstormPPC 604/233Mhz/060/50Mhz (rev.5) 128 MB Ram + Ariadne II.//////////// PRICE - 1400 pounds + shipping cost (was 1800 pounds)./////////////////////////////// SOLD to Stachu100. /- Picasso IV with audio module...

www.amibay.com

Taa!!

I'll see what I can do later today

 

[AmigaPete]

So, as long as you clearly inform buyer about surcharging, you are free to surcharge?

With reference to the rules about surcharging that @ratfink posted, the first sentence of the middle paragraph is the requirement.

You shall not surcharge for the use of our services.

Any time you see words like "shall" and "must" these words are triggers for requirements that must be met. Any lack of compliance is an infraction. Unfortunately the rest of the statement is written very poorly. It alludes to the fact that the practise, while not encouraged, does happen and when it happens that PayPal will not be responsible for informing the buyer of the extra fees. Really poorly written, in my opinion. They state the rule and then say, well if it happens we aren't responsible and wash our hands of it.

 

[ratfink]

Well, surcharging of consumers by businesses is mostly against UK regulations (but there are exceptions), but as said above this site is about trade between individuals (or are we all traders?) so that almost certainy doesn't apply anyway (either way!). I'd even guess that Paypal's drafting and apparent differences in rules for different locations is more about not bringing Paypal into disrepute (with an eye to these kinds of regulations) than anything else.

Surcharges guidance 2012

Really, as long as you know the risks, it is up to you whether you trade.

 

[fitzsteve]

Most invoicing applications even allow automatic adding of fees for payment processing which includes PayPal fees so guessing the practice is quite widespread.