Retro PC...

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Chinners

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I have been toying with the idea of setting up a nice retro PC to play some old school PC games and demos in their original environment.

The thing is, where to start! I have been using and upgrading PCs since my first 12mhz 286 in 1988, so the whole PC timeline seems a bit of a blur. I suppose the question is, what hardware to get?

Memorable Games I played to death:
Elite Plus
The Lost Vikings
The Screamer Series (Thanks Geoff, 1&2 are on their way :))
Wing Commander
Lemmings
Command And Conquer
Dune 2
Carmageddon 1 & 2
Need For Speed 1
Lotus Games

So basically, I am looking for a PC that can cover that lot. The Amiga can cover some, such as The Lost Vikings, but what I miss is the OPL sound and music of the Adlib card, especially in Lemmings an Lotus.

I remember certain VGA graphics cards had issues, especially in demos, or a nasty "snow" effect when changing the palette. What was the best card? I sort of remember TSeng Labs being highly rated.

I know a Voodoo card is a nice to have. As is a Gravis Ultrasound (Why did I throw mine away???!!!!?) but a stock Soundblaster 1.6 - 2.0 should be fine.

So. Any advice from Retro PC users on this lot? Do I go Pentium 133, or stick with a high 486?
 
How about an AMD K5 or K6? I may be able to lay hands on such a motherboard in AT flavour, and I have a few ISA sound cards here, such as ESS Audiodrives and Crystal sound cards. Alas, I don't have any genuine Sound Blasters in ISA flavour.
 
I remember playing a lot of those games on my PC at the time which I think will have been a Pentium MMX (earlier would have been my 486 DX4 100). If i were to try and recreate my machine from then it would be the Pentium MMX, Soundblaster (as most games were compatible with that) and something like an S3Trio64 video card with maybe a Voodoo 3DFX and a 180Mb hard drive!

Cheers

John
 
Tseng et4000 vga cards are highly rated for the vlb/isa era. Beyond that, s3 are said to have good compatibility [possibly the widest, though there always seem to be some games that are awkward], and 3dfx voodoo cards like the voodoo 3 also have good vesa support if it's dos games you are after. I use a tseng in my 386 and a matrox in my k6/3 box.

A good place to read up on this and also post is vogons.zetafleet.com, there are several places there but especially look at the marvin forum http://http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewforum.php?f=46. Plenty of very knowledgeable people very friendly and willing to give advice.

The vogons forums are centred around dosbox but it has also become about the best place on the web for retro pc discussions in the context of gaming.
 
Try a virtual machine

Try a virtual machine

You could run a virtual machine...

That seems to work great.

I have a mmx pc with an original SB card. Fun just trying to configure it all with DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11

Good luck
 
yep me too i played all those to death on i think a pentium 166mmx (playing that funky music)

i had a this setup (more or less)

166mmx , then 233mhz
some ram...probably 128mb by then
hideous ide hard drive
pine pci sound card (sound blaster emulation)
4x cdrom
and a 3d NEC's PowerVR (1997) and later in '98 a voodoo banshee

all those games were played to death. my first ever pc game (i bought) was Rebel Assault!

don't forget half life , shogo , carmageddon ,interstate 76, quake 2

I have a cd full of Sound blaster drivers somewhere if you need them...
 
I'd stick with a Pentium.... they still seem to pop up in my area on the side of the road or at the tip from time to time so they shouldn't be too difficult to find. Once you go 486 or earlier they become quite scarce and the prices on ebay for such equipment are insane. A 486 will be fine for many of your games but Need for Speed, Command and Conquer and Carmageddon will benefit from a faster processor especially if you run the higher res windows versions.

Some games don't like processors that are over 200MHz and will crash on startup, there is a patch available for some of these.

Wing commander is best played on a 386DX-33 with 128KB of L2 cache and an ET4000 video card. It's quite speed sensitive so it runs too fast on anything newer. Most 486 and Pentium 1 machines can do things like disable their L1 and L2 cache to slow down to an appropriate speed. There is a command line tool so you can do this in a script.
I think there is a newer re-release of wing commander 1, in a pack with some later games in the series that had some timing fixes applied so this might not apply to you. I'm not sure of the best machine for Elite Plus but I notice it ran slightly too fast on my 486 too.

ET4000 was generally considered one of the best ISA video cards. If you go a newer machine, any S3 PCI card is fine for DOS gaming and they shouldn't be very hard to find. If you get a VLB 486 then S3, Cirrus Logic, and Tseng all made decent chipsets but VLB cards are getting hard to find now.
If you want to build a machine that runs Windows for the later games you'll definitely want a PCI based Pentium board or newer.

Gravis Ultrasound is great... for games that support it natively. I run a 486 with both an Ultrasound and a Sound Blaster. Trying to make a game that doesn't natively support the Ultrasound play nice with it is a bit of a pain, I'd rather just use the sound blaster. The Ultrasound's General MIDI mode isn't great either.

I'd reccomend a Sound Blaster Pro for older machines - you get a real OPL3 synth, stereo sound and they aren't too noisy.
The older Sound Blasters are only really interesting if you want to play with the CMS/Game Blaster compatibility.
If you want a Sound Blaster 16 I'd reccomend a CT2800 model as it has a clean sound and has a real OPL3 synth on it. A LOT of SB16 models are very noisy with audible hiss and crackle.

If you want to use general MIDI with your games, then that's a whole new can of worms and I could go on at length about that :P
I will say though, the best sound device for Wing Commander, some Ultimas, many Sierrra and some Lucusarts games is the Roland MT32, or one of its equivalents - the LAPC-I or CM32/CM64/CM500. These are expensive and can be troublesome to get working. The LAPC-I is my pick as its the easiest to get working and is internal unlike the others, but its the rarest and most expensive.
 
How about an AMD K5 or K6? I may be able to lay hands on such a motherboard in AT flavour, and I have a few ISA sound cards here, such as ESS Audiodrives and Crystal sound cards. Alas, I don't have any genuine Sound Blasters in ISA flavour.
The K6 sounds intriguing, moreso as it is pin compatible with the Pentium. As I was fortunate to have a true Pentium (complete with floating point bug!), do you know how compatible there are games & demo wise? As for sound card, I think it has to be a genuine SB or SB16, again mainly for the demo side of things.


something like an S3Trio64 video card with maybe a Voodoo 3DFX and a 180Mb hard drive!
Yes! Thats the one The S3 Trio. Things are slowly coming back! I remember that it was Cirrus Logic that had plenty of bugs, especially when it came to "unchaining" the VGA mode to do nasty/great tricks with it! I was considering a Voodoo or Voodoo2 to live alongside it.

Tseng et4000 vga cards are highly rated for the vlb/isa era. Beyond that, s3 are said to have good compatibility [possibly the widest, though there always seem to be some games that are awkward], and 3dfx voodoo cards like the voodoo 3 also have good vesa support if it's dos games you are after. I use a tseng in my 386 and a matrox in my k6/3 box.

[snip for verbose]

The vogons forums are centred around dosbox but it has also become about the best place on the web for retro pc discussions in the context of gaming.
I think one of the ultimate "comaptibility" tests is the Panic demo by Future Crew. An awful lot of cards would barf at the scroller and plasma routines. (youtube vs youtube)

I'll certainly pay the vogons a visit, but I'll refrain from asking them about poetry.


You could run a virtual machine...
That seems to work great.
I have a mmx pc with an original SB card. Fun just trying to configure it all with DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11
Good luck
A virtual PC is not the same as a real "old" PC, such like Winuae is not an Amiga, WinAPE is not an AmstradCPC. They are close, but not quite there. Another task I was hoping for my old school PC was eeprom burning. I have a Willem eeprom writer, but can't use it due to 64bit windows 7 fun.

Windows 3.11 will not be installed :)


yep me too i played all those to death on i think a pentium 166mmx (playing that funky music)
and a 3d NEC's PowerVR (1997) and later in '98 a voodoo banshee
I have a cd full of Sound blaster drivers somewhere if you need them...
Wow, someone else who had a PowerVR. Great cards with rubbish marketing. Unfortunately one of the most expensive mistakes I made (if I'm honest with myself!) I too went to a banshee when they were released.

---------- Post added at 23:37 ---------- Previous post was at 23:20 ----------

A biggy, replied to seperate. Heavily snipped!
I'd stick with a Pentium.... they still seem to pop up in my area on the side of the road or at the tip from time to time so they shouldn't be too difficult to find.
Yes, I think a Pentium Class is going to be my target. as you say, a 166-200 sounds good. Unfortunately, our local tip now prohibits the "gannet" style of recycling, due to health and safety, other wise I would be there!

If you want to build a machine that runs Windows...
Um, nope :) I have nothing against Windows 1.x - 2000. The main advantage I found was that it lit my room up more than dos when I couldn't be arsed turning the light on, due to the lighter coloured background.

Gravis Ultrasound is great... for games that support it natively. I run a 486 with both an Ultrasound and a Sound Blaster. Trying to make a game that doesn't natively support the Ultrasound play nice with it is a bit of a pain, I'd rather just use the sound blaster. The Ultrasound's General MIDI mode isn't great either.
I used to run an SB16-ASP, with a wave blaster bolted on. I fed my GUS through the SB Line In, to get a nice mixed output. I really loved the GUS because of the demo scene - have a whole meg of ram just for samples was unheard of. As a gaming card, it wasn't catered for very well, especially when software mixing of sound channels became "the norm"

I'd reccomend a Sound Blaster Pro for older machines - you get a real OPL3 synth, stereo sound and they aren't too noisy.
The older Sound Blasters are only really interesting if you want to play with the CMS/Game Blaster compatibility.
If you want a Sound Blaster 16 I'd reccomend a CT2800 model as it has a clean sound and has a real OPL3 synth on it. A LOT of SB16 models are very noisy with audible hiss and crackle.
I'll keep my eye out for the CT2800. Is that the ISA model? I know a lot of PCI sound cards are terrible for noise, and very incompatible with dos games.

If you want to use general MIDI with your games, then that's a whole new can of worms and I could go on at length about that :P
Please do :) I used to have a wave blaster which was good (read FANTASTIC) in games you could get it to work with. I would really love to play Dune2 with an MT32 or similar...
 
The main advantage I found was that it lit my room up more than dos when I couldn't be arsed turning the light on, due to the lighter coloured background.


lol well you can achieve the same result at the DOS prompt with ANSI.SYS :p

I'll keep my eye out for the CT2800. Is that the ISA model? I know a lot of PCI sound cards are terrible for noise, and very incompatible with dos games.

Yes, the CT2800 is ISA. It uses the Vibra chipset which is basically a more integrated version of the original Creative SB16 chipset, but is much less prone to noise and interference. Vibras have a cleaner sound than the earlier SB16's but many of them lack a real OPL FM synth, instead using an inferior emulation which sounds a bit off. The CT2800 and CT2900 are two such ISA Vibra based cards that include a real Yamaha OPL chip. Of course if you're using MIDI then this is only of concern for games that don't support anything better than Sound Blaster or Adlib audio.

Please do I used to have a wave blaster which was good (read FANTASTIC) in games you could get it to work with. I would really love to play Dune2 with an MT32 or similar...

OK you asked for it :D wall of text incoming.....

I own several MIDI devices that I use with my gaming rigs:

MT32
LAPC-I
RAP-10
Sound Canvas SC55
Yamaha DB50XG clone (NEC XR385) waveblaster card

Also not true MIDI devices, but I'll include them here for comparison:
AWE32
Gravis Ultrasound Classic

These two work best for games that support them natively. You can run utils for GM compatibility for other games, but they tend to be a bit clunky, as you've discovered with the GUS. AWEUTIL is even worse.
You can install sample RAM on the AWE32/64 but its useless under DOS. Windows lets you load SF2 soundfonts on the AWE, under DOS you have to replace the default SBK soundfonts; there are very few SBK files out there and none of the ones I tried sounded any better than the default ones. So I'd suggest just to forget about it.

Of the above devices, my pick for best general sound is the DB50XG clone card. This might be personal preference but I find its generally the best sounding option all round. It can be had on ebay pretty cheaply too.

Of course some games will sound better on different devices. Tyrian seems to sound best on the AWE. Rise of the Triad seems best on the GUS, X-Wing sounds best on the SC-55, and so on.

Many earlier games were written for the MT32, these games will always sound best on that device. The big thing to worry about with MT32 is 'intelligent mode MIDI'. Many games will hang on launch if you have an MT32 attached to a non-intelligent MIDI controller, (known as UART MIDI). The Sound Blaster 16 and AWE both have a UART MIDI port. SB PRO and earlier are not MIDI compatible. I'm not aware of any SB clone cards that have intelligent MIDI, although the Ensoniq cards did apparently (these are comparatively rare and expensive though). I should also mention that I never managed to get my GUS's external MIDI port to work at all under DOS.

There is a patch for some games that will let you use an MT32 with a UART MIDI controller. The LAPC-I is an internal version of the MT32 and has a built-in intelligent mode MIDI controller so it doesn't have this problem.

Roland's own Intelligent MIDI controller ISA card is the MPU401-AT or the MPU-IPC. Be warned that you need both the MPU-IPC card and the breakout box, they often pop up on ebay as one or the other seperately. The MPU401-AT doesn't have a breakout box and also includes an internal Waveblaster daughterboard mount. If you can find one grab it!
I personally have a Music Quest ISA MIDI card to run my MT32, which doesn't need a breakout box.

Finally, the MT32/LAPC-I predates the General MIDI standard and doesn't work properly with games that only support GM. Some games actually claim MT32 support and have the option in the setup but they just try to run the MT32 in GM mode which produces poor results.

The Sound Canvas SC55 is a proper General MIDI device, and doesn't care about intelligent mode. The RAP-10 is an internal card, and its General MIDI mode sounds almost identical to the SC55. Some games support the RAP-10 for digital sound too (not many though). Both of these have an MT32 compatible mode but it doesn't sound identical to a real MT32 and if your game requires intelligent mode it won't fix this either.

The Waveblaster and compatible boards like my XR385 are proper General MIDI devices too. Of course they are mounted internally on a Sound Blaster 16 or compatible card.

Unfortunately nearly all SB16 models had the 'hanging note' bug: basically when using a MIDI device connected to the SB16 (internally on the Waveblaster header, or externally using the DB15 port) and using the same SB16 for digital sound, you sometimes get a stuck/hanging note on the synth.

Certain models seem to be affected more than others, The CT2800 has it quite badly. The original SB16 (CT1740 I think) didn't have this issue but has a poor SNR with audible cracks/hiss so its a poor choice anyway. The CT2230 was another model that doesn't seem to be affected but it too suffers from noise issues. Nearly all other models have it to varying degrees.
I think the AWE64 is not affected either but it doesn't have a Waveblaster header, nor does it have a real OPL chip on it so you don't get true adlib audio. My AWE32 IS affected and also has noise problems.

The quick test for this is to setup hexen with general MIDI + digital sound on the same card, then start hexen with
hexen -warp 02

And you should hear a high pitched constant ringing tone within a couple of minutes if not immediately.

This is noticable in other games during normal game play and its quite annoying, there is no fix for it. One alternative is to have two sound blasters in the one PC... one for digital sound, one to run the MIDI device. But this gets messy with IRQ and DMA settings etc.



I got frustrated with all this and ditched Sound Blasters all together. I tried a few different cards using Crystal, ESS or Opti chipsets and was disappointed in them all for various reasons - not working with certain games, lack of true OPL3 synth, driver issues etc.

I ended up buying a Yamaha YMF719 ISA card which includes a real OPL3 synth, does not suffer from hanging note bug and once the volume is set correctly in the mixer software, has nice clean output.
Unfortunately it wasn't big enough to mount my XR385 wavetable daughter board so I had to make an adapter cable:

IMG_1039.JPG


However I am very happy with the results.
Many clone cards are also not big enough to mount my XR385 card so be wary of this. I believe Yamaha made an external version of the DB50XG, in the MU series of MIDI synths but I haven't tried one.

I've done a recording of Rise of the Triad music using my GUS, SC55 and XR385

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9151127/ROTT/rott.html

There is a bit of noise in these files but its more to do with the crappy onboard sound I was using rather than the sound cards themselves. This is a good way to compare the sample sets of each card.


And finally, here's a tip - a lot of sound cards have jumpers for 'line' or 'speaker' out or a seperate line out jack. Use Line out when possible as the internal amplifiers are usually pretty noisy.

So there you have it. Sorry for the lengthy read but I hope it helps you out in some way :)
 
^ that's some concetrated retro-pc knowledge there :thumbsup2:

personally I've stuck with a good-old-CT1740 (I don't mind the noisy output much) with a DB-50XG and a LAPC-I ...
on a pentium1 machine (or a later model 486) I do recommend using an AGP/PCI Riva128ZX vga. I have made extensive testing and it offers the same compatibillity as an S3 card (which is a pure win right there) but with more speed and native VBE3.0 support for those DOS SVGA games (saves you conventional ram because you don't have to load a vesa tsr)
 
Honestly, i wouldn't bother with getting a quite that old machine. I'd hit a P3, S3 Virge or Trio, and a SB16. Yes it's way overkill on power, but it's not going to go near it's max workload leaving it running cooler, and parts will be easier to come by.

Also, that leaves plenty of room for a future MS-DOS / Win 3.X / Win9X boot configuration, even as you said that isn't going to happen.
B!
 
Based on this I just acquired a YMF719E-S, hoping it will be better than my CT1740? :)
 
I guarantee it!

In the drivers, turn off all settings for 3D, Ymersion, bass and treble enhancements. Put them all at 0.

Be sure to set the jumper on the card to disable the internal amplifier, and set all volumes to 7 (except for wave and mic unless you're using them. The WSS volumes can all be set to 0 for DOS games).

I also have a CT1740 and the YMF719 sounds a LOT better. An easy test is to download the freeware version of Alien Carnage (aka Halloween Harry) and listen to the intro music, you should notice a lot of pops and crackles on the CT1740 that aren't present on the YMF719.
Then play a few levels because its an awesome old game :)

If you want to mount a wavetable daughterboard on it you'll need to make an adapter cable as the card isn't physically big enough to fit it when its inserted in an ISA slot.
 
Sounds good, and thanks for the settings!

I have the same DB50XG clone, so will have to do a cable. I'm sure i have something that will fit. Old 40 pin IDE cable perhaps?

Is the YMF719 otherwise sb compatible for digital sound in games?
I'll give Alien Carnage a try :thumbsup:
 
Yep its totally Sound Blaster Compatible. I haven't run into any problems with it yet. It also has a real Yamaha OPL chip on it so all your FM synth will sound correct.

The wavetable daughterboard header is actually 26 pins. The daughterboard is female so you need to make one end of the cable with an IDC socket, the other with pins.

What I did was use an IDC socket on each end and stuck some pins in one of the sockets. However, due to the way IDC sockets are wired you need to swap each pair of wires. So one end is straight through, pins 1, 2, 3, 4 etc the other end is pins 2, 1, 4, 3... and so on.

If you use an external MIDI module you obviously don't need to worry about this.
Alternatively you could have both cards installed in your machine, with seperate IO/DMA/IRQ settings. One for MIDI and one for digital/FM.
 
why bother with the cable slk486? just use your MPU-401AT ;)
 
If only it were that simple :D

I have the CM-32L connected to that and I want the DB50XG on a different port, so I don't have to fiddle around with wires or invest in a mixer to isolate the midi sound. I don't really see any other option?
 
You could have the daughterboard and the CM-32L attached to the MPU401AT, and set up something to switch between the outputs. I think that would be less effort than making the cable for the YMF719...
 
You could have the daughterboard and the CM-32L attached to the MPU401AT, and set up something to switch between the outputs. I think that would be less effort than making the cable for the YMF719...

I suppose. It's just that the setup I have now is SOOO convenient :roll:

I'm thinking an IDE extension cable would do it?
 
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