Sega Master System just isn't that good...

[Rancibot]

Was revisiting the console a few days ago.


I remember going through a huge bunch of games, attempting to beat as much as I could, a while back, realizing that most of top games more than often than not suffer from bad controls, dull/dry gameplay, and being unrealistic to beat leading me to believe it just overall isn't that good of a retro console.


Almost every retro console and computer has tends to have more playable and iconic classics. While I am while aware of many great games on the master system, I'm still not so sure about the overall quality of its game's library as I see the same major issues across many games.


Examples:


Alex Kidd in miracle world: bad controls, dry gameplay, too hard
Afterburner: Bad controls, bad gameplay, unrealistic to beat
Space harrier: Bad flicker, beyond difficult, unrealistic to beat
Shinobi: Dull gameplay, too hard
Wonderboy II: Excessively difficult, boring and dull


List goes on....


How could they just mess up space harrier? The game is straight up unplayable.They should at least have given you infinite continues or have adjusted the difficulty.


Your thoughts?

 

[-Acid-]

I've never liked this console.... each time I had one I moved it on and still do not have one again. I never played it as a child so have no nostalgia for it either to get me past crappy or hard as nails games like I can on the NES and still enjoy it. For me Sega consoles began with the Megadrive.

 

[Jameson]

Wow, just goes to show how tastes differ. The Master System is one of my favorite 8 bit consoles - FAR better than the NES IMHO. I use the NES as a comparison since it seems to always be the 8 bit console held in the highest esteem.

The Master System just has more of the type of games that I enjoy than the NES and the games that appear on both systems usually are inferior on the NES (though there are exceptions) - compare Shinobi, Rampage, Operation Wolf, Bubble Bobble, New Zealand Story etc. The Master System games that I view as essential plays are the Wonderboy series - Wonderboy, Wonderboy in Monsterland and Wonderboy 3 The Dragons Trap (which recently had a remake and is STILL a delight to play). R-Type - best 8 bit version bar none (No, the PC Engine IS a 16 bit console! ) and even has an extra level to the arcade and all other versions. The Mickey Mouse Illusion series, in my opinion similar though superior to the Super Mario series. Power Strike II shows how powerful the Master System was and looks like a PC Engine shmup (though tough as nails). Best version of Choplifter on ANY platform. Great conversions of games from other platforms, such as Prince Of Persia. Arguably the most advanced RPG on an 8 bit - Phantasy Star. Great third party games in the later years such as the Donald Duck series, Asterix etc. High quality arcade conversions, for the most part.

Add to that the FM Synth option that many games have, the 3D glasses which actually work and predate the same lcd shutter lens system modern 3d TVs use now by three decades. A light gun that is more accurate than the notoriously flaky NES Zapper... the Master System may just be one of the best 8 bit consoles of all time. It is definitely appreciated far more by the retro community now than it has ever been in the past.

In comparison I find the NES a difficult console to go back to. On average, the games seem to be MORE difficult than comparable Master System games (to the point of not being enjoyable), the graphics always have a dirty, grainy look to them and the sprite flicker (on most games) is extraordinary. The ONLY field, IMHO, where a console like the NES gives the Master System a run for it's money is Audio. The NES is nothing special, but quite competent in the sound department. The Master System, not counting FM Synth where available, usually sounds a lot tinnier and thinner.

Put it this way. If I was stuck on a desert island and could only have a single 8 bit console (no, don't mention the PC Engine.) and three games, I would be playing Sega.

 

[Rancibot]

Wow, just goes to show how tastes differ. The Master System is one of my favorite 8 bit consoles - FAR better than the NES IMHO. I use the NES as a comparison since it seems to always be the 8 bit console held in the highest esteem.

The Master System just has more of the type of games that I enjoy than the NES and the games that appear on both systems usually are inferior on the NES (though there are exceptions) - compare Shinobi, Rampage, Operation Wolf, Bubble Bobble, New Zealand Story etc. The Master System games that I view as essential plays are the Wonderboy series - Wonderboy, Wonderboy in Monsterland and Wonderboy 3 The Dragons Trap (which recently had a remake and is STILL a delight to play). R-Type - best 8 bit version bar none (No, the PC Engine IS a 16 bit console! ) and even has an extra level to the arcade and all other versions. The Mickey Mouse Illusion series, in my opinion similar though superior to the Super Mario series. Power Strike II shows how powerful the Master System was and looks like a PC Engine shmup (though tough as nails). Best version of Choplifter on ANY platform. Great conversions of games from other platforms, such as Prince Of Persia. Arguably the most advanced RPG on an 8 bit - Phantasy Star. Great third party games in the later years such as the Donald Duck series, Asterix etc. High quality arcade conversions, for the most part.

Add to that the FM Synth option that many games have, the 3D glasses which actually work and predate the same lcd shutter lens system modern 3d TVs use now by three decades. A light gun that is more accurate than the notoriously flaky NES Zapper... the Master System may just be one of the best 8 bit consoles of all time. It is definitely appreciated far more by the retro community now than it has ever been in the past.

In comparison I find the NES a difficult console to go back to. On average, the games seem to be MORE difficult than comparable Master System games (to the point of not being enjoyable), the graphics always have a dirty, grainy look to them and the sprite flicker (on most games) is extraordinary. The ONLY field, IMHO, where a console like the NES gives the Master System a run for it's money is Audio. The NES is nothing special, but quite competent in the sound department. The Master System, not counting FM Synth where available, usually sounds a lot tinnier and thinner.

Put it this way. If I was stuck on a desert island and could only have a single 8 bit console (no, don't mention the PC Engine.) and three games, I would be playing Sega.

I agree about the master's systems good games, 3-d glasses, hidden gems and better versions compared to the nes ones.

However, to be fair, as pointed out space harrier, afterburner, thunderblade etc are supposed to be best titles sega put out from 1985-88, the definite fact that they are unplayable on SMS not by 80's gaming standards or neshard standards but by truly impossible difficulty, unrealistic learning curve, bad controls, and flicker, hand strain form the pad just takes away from the reputation of this console in my opinion.

Not to mention alex kidd in miracle world, wonderboy II and even to a lesser degree shinobi and rastan do not seem to be super playable games on any level and suffer from many of the issues I described earlier.

Sorry but I just can't look past these big mistakes. I agree with the good games you mentioned.

TBH, if you truly have played through and beaten all the nes classics and wide range of games I would highly doubt you would think the same, nes difficulty tends to be balanced in most cases and worse case can be figured out with some help. Ex. Zelda, Metroid.

 

[Jameson]

I think you are letting your own personal opinion mar looking at the games you mentioned objectively. The reason I say this is that, as much as you do not like the MS port of Space Harrier (and I am not a fan of it either to be honest), it is actually held in high esteem by many - even Joe from Gamesack cites it as one of his favorite MS games.

Wonderboy II (In Monsterland) is an INCREDIBLY good port - very faithful recreation of the arcade original. What is even stranger is that I do not even consider it to be a difficult game - certainly no difficult than the arcade original - and I am not what you would call a l33t gamer.

The port of Shinobi is also considered a very good MS game and arcade port by most, as is Rastan. Perhaps you should play the arcade original of these games to get a better appreciation of whether the difficulty levels in them are wildly different from the originals (they are not). Perhaps it is simply that these games are not your cup of tea, which is fair enough.

With this in mind I truly believe the problem you are having is due to taste in games - the games you mentioned on the NES (Zelda and Metroid) are highly praised NES games, yet I can't stand either of them - terrible graphics, bland boring gameplay (Metroid's WTF do I do now factor etc) and that Nintendo feel (I am not a Nintendo fan if that's not blatantly obvious by now). Still, I know I am in the minority as most gamers consider these to be some of the greats of their generation.

Everyone has different tastes and perhaps yours are best sated by the NES library rather than the MS, just as mine is visa versa.

 

[Rancibot]

I think you are letting your own personal opinion mar looking at the games you mentioned objectively. The reason I say this is that, as much as you do not like the MS port of Space Harrier (and I am not a fan of it either to be honest), it is actually held in high esteem by many - even Joe from Gamesack cites it as one of his favorite MS games.

Wonderboy II (In Monsterland) is an INCREDIBLY good port - very faithful recreation of the arcade original. What is even stranger is that I do not even consider it to be a difficult game - certainly no difficult than the arcade original - and I am not what you would call a l33t gamer.

The port of Shinobi is also considered a very good MS game and arcade port by most, as is Rastan. Perhaps you should play the arcade original of these games to get a better appreciation of whether the difficulty levels in them are wildly different from the originals (they are not). Perhaps it is simply that these games are not your cup of tea, which is fair enough.

With this in mind I truly believe the problem you are having is due to taste in games - the games you mentioned on the NES (Zelda and Metroid) are highly praised NES games, yet I can't stand either of them - terrible graphics, bland boring gameplay (Metroid's WTF do I do now factor etc) and that Nintendo feel (I am not a Nintendo fan if that's not blatantly obvious by now). Still, I know I am in the minority as most gamers consider these to be some of the greats of their generation.

Everyone has different tastes and perhaps yours are best sated by the NES library rather than the MS, just as mine is visa versa.

Objectively the sega master system has many good games some of which you mentioned in your earlier post, as mentioned I still feel too many big titles suffer from issues that I brought up.

Graphically, Space Harrier on sms for 1986 no doubt looks like a masterpiece, but when it comes to wanting to beat it or getting past a 2-12 stages, it seems unrealistic for the wrong reasons when it possibly could have been more playable and so this is a big let down. The arcade seems easier to beat than the master system in my opinion.Many people have complained playability on the sms port is severely let down by the the game mechanics/graphic issues.

Regarding Wonderboy II, for what I understand, WB II tends to be regarded as difficult mainly to the lack of a save feature and cryptic parts/mechanics. Didn't mention the quality of it being a good or bad game. Also I am not sure how much you can abuse quarters in the arcade original.

While shinobi and rastan tend to be regarded as good ports, with good graphics there is something that just feels off about them. While they obviously aren't extremely difficult games, however at some point they just feel like a chore to get through or feel difficult for the wrong reasons and they lack enough edge imo for being ports of top sega titles. Irrespective of graphic limitations, I wish they were challenging in more exciting ways like the arcade games which I have sampled or viewed in the past. This takes away from the playability.

Based on what I've seen the PC-Engine and even to a lesser extent the Amiga version of Shinobi seem more appealing than SMS. The dos version of Rastan as well.

There are many amazing consoles and games beyond the sms and nes.

Still you don't have to be into the nes to see that it definitely had more diversity and stronger top titles.

 

[Jameson]

In no particular order.

Wonderboy In Monsterland is just not difficult. I am really struggling to understand how you could find it so. It might be that there are a few times where you find things out by trial and error, such as the Sphinx's riddle, but that happens like three times in the entire game. I found it much easier than the early Final Fantasy or Zelda games myself, but that might be simply because I struggled to keep my interest in them long enough to play.

I know the NES and MS are merely the "drop in the ocean" with regards retro gaming of this era (I should know, I collect for over 300 systems), the reason I focused on those is that the topic is the MS and it is the common 'go to' for most people to compare the MS to it's nearest rival - the NES. The very first reply to your opening post even goes to prove that - the NES is mentioned.

The other reason I use the NES as a 'measuring stick' is simply that it is, in the US and Japan, the most warmly remembered and revered console of this generation, and by far the most successful and well supported (not so in most of the rest of the world though where the MS and home computers kicked it's arse ).

So, you may say the NES is the gold standard of it's era (and partially into the 16 bit era as well). However, it still shows my point that personal preference will always be the ultimate deciding factor as to someones opinion on the relative worth of a gaming platform and it's game library.

Ask someone from a European region and most (though not all) will have a preference for the Sega system - it was far more prevalent there than the NES, more successful and had, arguably, a gaming library more tailored to the tastes of this region. This is not to say that the MS is automatically the better machine (though technically it stomps the NES), it is simply due to a combination of nostalgia value (what you grew up with) and taste in games.

Ask someone from the US or Japan and most (though not all) will have a preference for the Nintendo system - for the exact same reasons.

I, myself, grew up with both, though Sega had a stronger presence here. I have always preferred the MS over the NES as, to me, the NES games always felt hollow and slow and, graphically at least, more primitive in comparison to the MS. Then again, I like arcade games, especially like Sega arcade games, and the MS was the place to be if that was your taste.

I accept that many others see past the flickery graphics and muddy colours and see something very special in NES games that they do not see in the Sega counterparts - that's fine and sounds like yourself.

The NES certainly has the larger library, but not by as much as you might think. You have to realise that NTSC regions only got a fraction of the games that were released in PAL regions for the MS. Hell, new MS games were being released in Brazil as recently as the late 90s! There the MS got a release of Mortal Kombat 2, Street Fighter 2, Earthworm Jim etc. In the end, 714 officially released NES games (Worldwide) vs 334 officially released MS games (Worldwide). The NES has over double the library of the MS..... but if you start going through both libraries you might find (well, I did) there are a much higher proportion of average, below average or plain stinkers on the NES than the MS.

So the NES has the advantage in quantity.... but what about quality? Well, that comes down to personal preference and everyone will say differently. I, myself, hold the MS library WAY above the NES (my NES's rarely get used, but my McWill LCD fitted Game Gear with region mod, FM sound mod and Master Everdrive gets used all the time) in quality. Better graphics (with far less flickering) more polish (in most cases) and just more fun to play - but hey, that's just me.

All genres are covered by both consoles for the most part, but you will see a big difference in the proportion of titles in certain genres for both platforms. The NES has a higher proportion of RPGs, Baseball, Puzzle games and original IP. The MS has a higher proportion of arcade type games. I hate JRPGs and sport games (Puzzle games I can take or leave), but I love arcade games - so the MS is for me. Your mileage may vary.

You see, the problem is, if you don't like the KIND of game prevalent on a system, well, you are just not going to like the system - jusst as you don't like the MS and I don't like the NES. The KIND of games I like are all better on the MS - you mentioned Space Harrier on the MS.... have you seen the NES port? What a stinker. Shinobi on NES - you think the MS version does not feel right... the NES version not only plays terrible, feels terrible but it even managed to look terrible to boot. The NES didn't even GET a version of Rastan, nor Wonderboy in Monsterland (the NES got the Adventure Island series which are a poor mans Wonderboy).

Nor sure why you would compare the PC Engine and Amiga version of Shinobi to the MS as they are orders of magnitude more powerful systems so it is not exactly a fair comparison. Having said that, the MS version plays better than the Amiga version, of which I have an original copy. The PC Engine version is terrible - it plays okay, but is missing the bonus rounds (present in the MS version) the weapon upgrades (present in the MS version) and even the close range attack (erm, present in the MS version). Why don't you try comparing the NES version of Shinobi and see what you think?

I definitely do not agree that the NES had stronger top titles. I just don't 'get' NES games the same way I 'get' MS games, so to me the NES 'top titles' are not MY 'top titles' - the reason why the MS is getting more and more time from retro enthusiasts in the last decade or so is that I am not the only one who feels this way.

But, lets not compare the MS to the NES anymore - on it's own merits it is a fantastic console, very technically capable for it's time with a large game library (330+ titles), a VERY long lifespan (I believe Tec Toy are STILL producing a version of the MS), very varied library. Has many interesting peripherals that actually work (I am looking at you NES Zapper) including 3d glasses. But most importantly it has some of the most beloved titles of gaming from this era - to many, the greatest 8 bit RPG, the best 8 bit ports of many arcade games, the best versions of some cross platform games (Choplifter etc).... I could go on and on.... but I won't.

At the end of the day you seem to simply not like the MS game library - nothing will change that, but please don't assume that is the status quo - many of us love the MS game library. 'Cos he MS rulez, simple as that.

 

[SaviorX]

The Sega Master System was designed prior to 1985 and isn't very good, go figure.

the NES was far more popular and got more than double the number of titles release than did the SMS, no surprise there.

the NES definitely wins in the software arena, not only on amount of games released, but in the RPG and Strategy genres in particular, the SMS literally got Phantasy Star (admittedly one of the best of the generation), Ys and Ultima IV...along with Populus for 'strategy' and very little else, also King's Quest: Quest for the Crown, if you want to press the point (though, more adventure than actual RPG, but worth a mention - NES got Kings Quest V)

It does appear that a huge proportion of NES games (nearly half?) weren't released in PAL markets, while a mere 35 (5%) PAL games were not released to NTSC markets, which is also presumably why I could never find Asterix or the Smurfs, 2 of my all-time favorite 'IP's. (meanwhile, I believe both got NA releases on the SMS), and as pointed out by Jameson, the opposite appears to be true of the SMS, with virtually 1/2 of all games not recieving a North American/NTSC release, and very, very few NA/NTSC exclusives. (King's Quest: Quest for the Crown, Montezuma's Revenge and Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?)

the SMS version of Montezuma's Revenge might just be the best port of any system, having revamped graphics, sound and levels.

the SMS has the usual number of largely satisfactory Shooters, Platformers and Arcade conversions...

the SMS feels a bit lacking in 'licensed' titles, with Sega relying a lot on their own properties, many of the Sega titles are very good however (ie: the Sonic games)

If you like RPG and/or Strategy games, you are quite simply going to prefer the NES. One of the biggest appeals of the NES for me was the fact that it had all the Koei games, Uncharted Waters, Nobunaga's Ambition and Genghis Khan are all on my list as among the best games I've ever played. (I would have loved it if Civilization 1 had made it's way to the NES)

there's no point comparing the PC Engine/TurboGrafx16, as it is not considered part of the 3rd gen of consoles, but part of the 4th along with the SNES and Sega Genesis, it is neither a true 8-bit, nor 16-bit, but a hybrid 8/16 (8-bit cpu/16-bit graphics system) and imo manages (just) to keep up with it's younger, but more powerful cousins, despite obvious limitations (HuCards appear to top out at 1MB/8Mbit, whereas SNES and Genesis have many carts that are 2MB/16Mbit and even a few at 3MB/24Mbit, allowing for more 'robust' games)...one of the TG16s games, Military Madness still remains as one of my all-time favorites.

Some of the TurboCD games, particularly the RPGs blow the SNES and Genesis out of the water. (and I AM including SegaCDs in that )
Cosmic Fantasy 2, Dragon Slayer: The Legend of Heroes, Ys: Book I & II, Ys III: Wanders from Ys are all fantastic.
RPGs on HuCard were very limited, Double Dungeons and a few Action-RPGs.
Several of the sports games included a Dragon Warrior/Final Fantasy type RPG mode whereby you defeated your opponent at the sport, rather than in battle, to earn money for upgrades. (Final Lap Twin being my favorite)

other systems of the 3rd gen are far more lacking:

the Atari 7800 only got 59 releases, though it's main appeal was the fact it would also play 99% of the 2600 games out there, which included 565 official games, but has virtually nothing for RPG/Strategy (ie: more complicated) games.

the Commodore 64GS, Commodores attempt to enter the console market was a failure, while it claimed to be able to utilize the existing library of C64 carts, many of them were unplayable, as the system didn't have a keyboard, and as such was unable to start, and in most cases select game options for the multitude of games that required f-key and/or space bar or return key presses.

I have no experience with the Atari XEGS, but I understand that it played the existing catalogue of 400/800 games as well as 32 releases of it's own, and was at least better than the 64GS

the Action Max and View-Master Interactive Vision systems required a VCR, and I don't recall them being very good, and never came across anyone who owned one for that matter...the View-Master had a mere handful (7 actually) of titles, all of which were Sesame Street, Muppet and 1 Disney Cartoon Arcade title. the Action Max only had 5 VHS titles released.

Philips Videopac+ G7400, successor to the Odyssey2, was limited to Europe and would have also become the Odyssey3 had it sold better there. it also supported O2 games as well as it's own, there appear to have been around 31 Videopac+ 'enhanced' games.

The Casio PV-1000, Super Cassette Vision, Amstrad GX4000 (which LOOKS exceptionally cool for the gen) and the V-Tech Socrates (more an educational toy really) are all barely worth a mention.

 

[Jameson]

The Sega Master System was designed IN 1985, it was backwards compatible (to an extent) to the Sega SG 1000 and Sega Mk II and Mk III (which was almost identical hardware to the Master System).

The Master System was quite a powerful system when it was released. In fact, it was the most powerful home console when released and would only be outclassed by the NEC Pc Engine released more than 2 years later.

The closest rival in power to the MS was the NES, which had less RAM, a slower CPU, Less sprites, less sprite resolution options, smaller colour palette, less onscreen colours and, for the games that support FM sound, lower sound quality.

Of course, at the end of the day it is the games that count, not the system specs, but still the MS was quite a powerful system when it was released.

Also, whilst the NES outsold the MS by a LARGE margin overall, in MORE parts of the world the MS outsold the NES. Problem was that in most of Europe, Australia, UK etc where the MS outsold the NES, the gaming public were more interested in computer gaming than console gaming, so console sales were only a small part of the gaming uptake in these areas.

Anywho, now that you mention the Atari 7800, that was an interesting system crippled by the stupid decision to not include a Pokey chip in the console itself and pitiful software development by the post Tramiel run Atari. Shame as it has an interesting architecture that allows for almost unlimited sprites onscreen. Terrible at scrolling games though, which quickly became the norm.

All of this talk is making me want to do a play through of Monsterland.

 

[SaviorX]

What appeal the SMS did have was CLEARLY the box art...

View attachment 140921

 

[paul1981]

I used to think my C64 at the time was better than the Master System. However, when I revisited the Master System under emulation about 10 years ago I was aptly corrected.
If I had to choose between the SMS or NES I'd choose NES. I always wanted a NES as I preferred the look of the thing when compared with the SMS. I have to like the looks of stuff for me to be even interested! Same with the Megadrive / SNES...I always preferred the looks of the SNES even if it did have more of a 'toyish' look about it.

To OP: Games were hard back then weren't they? I'm not much of a gamer, it takes a good game to hold my attention so I play few games now...but I do remember having more excitement with the anticipation of playing a game rather than the actual playing of the game itself!

 

[Jameson]

Hi Paul,

your post perfectly sums up my sentiment - personal tastes are varied and do not conform to any rules or logic. The design of the Master System (original) is considered very attractive and iconic where as the NES looks, to most, like a box - though a very iconic box. But for everyone that finds the MS look attractive there will be others who dislike it's look. The original Master System is considered by most to be a much better looking console than the Master System II... however I have even come across a couple (though not many) who buck the trend and prefer the look of the II!

The Sega Megadrive (1) is also considered one of the sexiest console designs by most.... the Snes.... hmmmm. Still, you prefer the Snes. Go figure.

Tastes are so subjective - I remember seeing a post where someone was defending the look of the US Snes in comparison to the Jap/Eur model! One of the most universally loathed designs, yet someone prefers it. Again, go figure.

- - - Updated - - -

....oh and don't underestimate the '64 - some of it's later games really give the MS a run for it's money - check out Sam's Journey (absolutely amazing), Turrican III or Mayhem in Monsterland (not a fan of this game, but technically a masterpiece).

You would be surprised what they squeezed out of the C64 in it's twilight years. Also, the mighty Sid stomps the PCM sound in the Master System and is arguably as good as the FM sound.

 

[Firthy2002]

the SMS feels a bit lacking in 'licensed' titles, with Sega relying a lot on their own properties, many of the Sega titles are very good however (ie: the Sonic games)

Because Nintendo quickly locked up most of the third party developers in their draconian licence system which forbade them releasing the same titles on rival platforms.

There weren't many left to develop for the Master System, hence the large amount of first party games and ports.