What is Zorro IV?

[AndyLandy]

So, Elbox at least make a "Zorro IV" busboard for classic Amigas. My question is "What is it?" -- Z2 and Z3 are pretty clear-cut, but what does ZIV do above-and-beyond Z3? How much (if any) hardware is out there that's ZIV-compatible? How standard is it?

 

[Tajmaster]

I believe that Z4 slots were just Zorro 2 slots over clocked, or something like that. Im pretty sure theyre not a patch on Z3 and they need Z4 specific cards to take advantage of them.

 

[Templar]

Please note that Zorro IV has nothing to do with the standard Zorro II and III buses used in most Amigas. It is a custom bus invented by Elbox.

Taken from a site. But I bet Andy, as many other people including me, wants to know what the differences are.

 

[Kin Hell]

Afaik Andy, Elbox's Z4 is a fudge of ZORRO III meaning DMA isn't in the equation. :dry:
& yes, afaik2, it is a unique Bus to Elbox to compensate the lack of DMA support.

ZORRO IV would have been the next step for C= had they still been around to implement it. *sigh*

Kin

 

[Zetr0]

@Kinnie

ZIV port does support DMA when you pair it to a ZIV Mediator (which I also have) -

DMA is provided by using a portion of the mediator PCI graphics ram as a DMA / Cache Buffer - there are also programs on Aminet that allow you to add graphics ram to the main ram of the system.

I would love to test this with a 256mb radeon.

although if every I get to develope a DMA equiped AGP port I will make sure that I write ATI 4650 drivers and 7800 Nvida ones...

yes... 512MB or even 1GB of GDDR 2/3 for you miggy.... I think so sir.... i do i do i do =D


/Zetr0 has had to leave this thread due to foaming at the mouth caused by an inordinate amount of drool

 

[Kin Hell]

@Kinnie

ZIV port does support DMA when you pair it to a ZIV Mediator (which I also have) -

DMA is provided by using a portion of the mediator PCI graphics ram as a DMA / Cache Buffer - there are also programs on Aminet that allow you to add graphics ram to the main ram of the system.

This is the Fudge Elbox had to do to get their version of DMA to Work. However, it doesn't do it with the Amiga's System RAM, so it isn't really DMA.

Kin

 

[keropi]

What I know is that ZorroIV allows transferring data on both the rising and falling edges of the clock signal (much like DDR ram for example) and if you have a ZorroII card that supports that (like CyberVision64/3D , threre is one more card that supports this, but I cannot remember it ATM) then you get a speed increase. But not really LOL.
I had one , with a mediatorZIV , the G-Rex1200 run circles around it...

 

[Kin Hell]

I know what you mean keropi. My now ex - G-REX 4000D blows away any PCI solution from Elbox. True 32Bit DMA from PCI right onto your CS card. Just mentally fast & still true DMA on the ZORRO risers too.
Unfortunately, Elbox are not in the equation at all with the ZIV. Heck, those Elbox ZIV slots are only ZORRO II at best & without true DMA support, they are slow. Not sure if you can use one without a graphics card installed tbh. :shrug: It's a bit like the other mediators. You cant have an Ethernet card in there if there isn't a Graphics card installed. The NIC uses the Graphic card RAM as a buffer because DMA is fubar.

Kin

 

[Zetr0]

"you purist DMA scumm, its types like you lot..... *heheh*" =)


I will take up the defense of the ZIV - since I can =D


Theres nothing wrong with the Mediator - it give great results at low-cost

Yeah, DMA is a fugde, however lets be honest, if you have a CS-SCSI or other SCSI option you would be using that for loading and that is really where DMA comes into its own.

The ZIV and the Mediators (for the A1200's atleast) are the best you are going to get with a basic Z2 backplane without taking a 2nd or 3rd mortgage - as you guys know Zorro 2 doens't support DMA - its a polled bus.

Now when you factor the cost of a GREX (and the latter version that has 2 DMA lines instead of 1) and a resonable speed PPC based accelerator (with SCSI) you have atleast doubled if not trippled the cost of a good 060 and mediator - say LT4

I have a Mediator ZIV and a ZIV Busboard, I plan to do some very tastey experiments (ms Voodo 5500 pci :inlove with them =D, my good friend Keropi has also provided me a ZIV Fast ATA too (my sincere thanks my friend)

so the whole thing is ZIV'd up =D

 

[RedDaemonFox]

Zorro IV is Shiite, it has no benefit over ZII unless you have that rare buddha version that supports it or CV64/3D. I have to say the mediator solutions are very low cost when compared to the GREX. If only they had support for Radeons that carried 512m or higher, then we could add that to system ram, and double the CSPPC/BLIZPPC RAM (It really is bull that the CS can only address 128 when teh Bliz can do 256. )

 

[Zetr0]

@Dreamy

Zorro IV is Shiite,

Thats some strong wording my friend - why?

it has no benefit over ZII unless you have that rare buddha version that supports it or CV64/3D.

I think you are getting confused here, both those cards use Fast Speed Z2, not the ZIV port.

There are only 2 items that got released for the ZIV winner -

ZIV Mediator PCI
ZIV Fast ATA adapter

I wouldn't call either of them shite, there are better solutions, however these are at a much higher cost.

As Kinnie points out the ZIV is a slighly modified Z2 port - what this means is that it has more interutp signals - the Winner ZIV board provides 5x Zorro2 / Fast Zorro 2, Video Expasion port, four Clock ports (2 useable) and 2 ZIV sockets

hardly shite me thinks. even if it was used as a Zorro2 busboard.

I have to say the mediator solutions are very low cost when compared to the GREX. If only they had support for Radeons that carried 512m or higher, then we could add that to system ram, and double the CSPPC/BLIZPPC RAM (It really is bull that the CS can only address 128 when teh Bliz can do 256. )

I would also argue that in software terms the Mediator is better served - with a number of device drivers that are not available on either the GREX or the Promethus PCI adapters.

When you look at the price 'vs performance this really comes down to personal preference, as such one should weigh features (or lack of) to cost and what you expect the system to do.

The ZIV winner board, although you could argue cheap... its still a long way from shiite..

 

[Justin]

pah don't talk to me about mediators!!

 

[Zetr0]

/zetr0 gives JuvUK a hug

there there chap.... go to your happy place...... lets not worry about all this mediator nonsense...

 

[Kin Hell]

pah don't talk to me about mediators!!

Nothing wrong with Mediators, if you know what you're doing. :twisted:

A've eet!

@ thread

Don't get me wrong earlier, this solution Zetr0 talks about is actually the only way to get ZORRO into an Amiga 1200 these days. Either the Elbox ZIV or a Micronik affair afaik.
Whilst this feature is cool for an A1200, it's miles behind in speed & efficiency compared to a ZIII equiped Amiga. At best, it's a speeded up A2000 back-bone with the capability of utilising ZORRO or PCI based interfaces.

All the same though, Dreamy is kinda right saying:

Zorro IV is Shiite, it has no benefit over ZII <snip>

& I must insist;

"If you haven't seen an A4KD running on a G-REX 4000D (CS MKIII or CSPPC required) you have never seen an Amiga at it's fastest."
It's faster than lightning in everything it does, believe me!

Kin

 

[rkauer]

Pretty much agree with Charlie & Keith: Mediator add-on is not a speed demon, but compared to the naked Amiga, it securely fly.

My best A1200 is equipped with an old Mediator LT4 & Blizzard 1260, used a Voodoo3 3000 & ethernet NIC. Never feel the urge to add a Soundblaster or TV capture card. It do a large boost in performance to a basic A1200, but I ever feel the computer can go faster with another solution.

But at least MediTator systems are affordable!

 

[RedDaemonFox]

Okay, i was mistaken in that, I meant the double speed Z2 slots on the board, sorry. I am a 3000 guy currently (although i still can't get it to work) and there is no PCI solutions except the prometheus and the 3000T and 3000D bus boards. and all require a tower conversion. I still hold with ZIV being Shiite, because it only has two card for it . Pah! Once I get my 3000 working with my 3640 then towerize it with all the necessities (PCI, 060/PPC, etc.) Then me and Zetr0 can battle

 

[Zetr0]

.....bliggle....blah...blurb.....etc...

Pah! Once I get my 3000 working with my 3640 then towerize it with all the necessities (PCI, 060/PPC, etc.) Then me and Zetr0 can battle

*heheheh*

you do understand, I have a lot of Amiga to bring to the battle.... a simple ppc based A3k wont be enough chap.... =D

besides, even if i couldn't use my Amiga, I still wont lose, I am sure that r0jaws would lend me his BPPC for the battle.... thats a 330Mhz PPC + 060@60mhz + Fast SCSI 2 + AGA + BVision + Indivision + Wifi Networking - its quite the package of PWNAGE =D


so.... what you done to your Amiga 3000 ?

 

[RedDaemonFox]

I see I obviously stand no chance. But remember a 230mhz 604e is much faster than a 230mhz 603e, maybe when I get a ppc card I'll get stachu to upgrade it.


But, I'm, serious about a benchmark competition for amigas on this forum one day.

 

[Kin Hell]

Just to put the brag element to rest in here, I have to say the 604/e is not miles faster than the 603/e at all.

However, it does have double cache size and can use 64-bit memory addressing on the CSPPC, where the BPPC has only 32-bit memory addressing.

According to these results, another 200MIPS is not to be sniffed at, ....though I doubt OS4.0 Classic will really benefit in the slightest.

http://www.alinea-computer.de/amigaspeed/ppc.html

Kin

 

[keropi]

the main cripple in ppc cards for the amiga is the lack of L2 cache. That's just a shame...