Amiga Vampire?

[Amiga Forever]

Would you Buy Amiga Vampire for Amiga 500 or 600 or 1200? Or

Buying Stand alone Vampire of 68080?

IF Yes, What would you used it for?

IF No, Why wont you buy it?

 

[miggymad]

I have 2 Vampire V2 1200's and a V4 Standalone in my collection. More for my Amiga collection than anything else.

One V2 gets booted for games, online stuff etc on a regular basis though.

 

[VosCoBoss]

I had a vampire 500 v2. It’s cool what it can do but for me it had no real advantages. Also, I very much disliked having to switch inputs the entire time.

I will not buy another one because it’s not real hardware. That is my own personal subjective opinion.

The charm for me is using real hardware that was available at the time. I would use a warp 1260 or a tf1260 because it uses a real cpu (I don't mind it using other modern components).

Objectively speaking, the vampire is a very good buy. However, part of retro computing is feeling, it can never be entirely objective.

 

[HanJammer]

I would not. It's not real vintage CPU based accelerator, it's not real vintage silicone, it's not real retrocomputing experience. It's just an emulation. If start using FPGA then you can as well switch to a software based emulator.

If you are looking for more performance but can't afford/find real period correct accelerator then buy Terrible Fire for example.

 

[Havie]

I would not. It's not real vintage CPU based accelerator, it's not real vintage silicone, it's not real retrocomputing experience. It's just an emulation. If start using FPGA then you can as well switch to a software based emulator.

If you are looking for more performance but can't afford/find real period correct accelerator then buy Terrible Fire for example.

If you have a 1200 then I'm not sure a TF is a very good suggestion as they aren't available yet and I think you might have to source your own 68060 cpu. V1200 is a good option if you want to get 060 speed at less than an 060 price. Regarding switching inputs - yes you do if you used RTG but this is the same for any RTG system as far as I know and there is nothing to stop you running the Vampire in either PAL or NTSC mode and use it purely as an accelerator - some would say this is waste of all the additional features but again, compared to an 060 accelerator it isn't. Saying that, on my V1200, the RTG looks great.

At the end of the day, it's horses for courses - I loved my original Blizzard 1220, then my 030 but the Vampire is a big step

 

[Amiga Forever]

Would there be Vampire 5 in the future?

 

[Sardine]

I would not. It's not real vintage CPU based accelerator, it's not real vintage silicone, it's not real retrocomputing experience. It's just an emulation. If start using FPGA then you can as well switch to a software based emulator.

If you are looking for more performance but can't afford/find real period correct accelerator then buy Terrible Fire for example.

I think you need to have a conversation with jotego on what is emulation

Yes its not real hardware but its re-created down to component lvl FPGA.

As long as the implementation is correct you can't tell the difference,

Snes on the Mist for example no one has been able to tell which one is real hardware vs fpga ( there are a few videos on it ) its that good.

and yes there are some bad implementations only due to undocumented reverse engineered mistakes.

but i do agree in that using a "REAL" amiga including the annoyances ( if that's a thing ) hoping the floppy disk you just put in loads or swapping disk 6 of 12 in Monkey Island 2 is part of the "fun".

 

[miggymad]

but i do agree in that using a "REAL" amiga including the annoyances ( if that's a thing ) hoping the floppy disk you just put in loads or swapping disk 6 of 12 in Monkey Island 2 is part of the "fun".

And that's why we now have Gotek's

- - - Updated - - -

Would there be Vampire 5 in the future?

The Vampire V500 II+ and V4+ Standalone were recently released. Not quite number 5 but almost lol

http://www.apollo-computer.com/products.html

 

[fitzsteve]

I have a Vampire 500 whilst I'm pleased with it there is now real competition in PiStorm which is a considerably cheaper solution.

I mostly use it like I did my A4000 for an RTG workbench, I use emulators such as Spectrum and play various games such as Doom, I tend to play Nova Coders ports mostly as they're well optimised for an 060 @ 80mhz which is roughly the performance I get from my Vampire 500.

I'm on the waiting list for a Vampire 1200, I'll probably sell the Vampire 500 if/when I get that or abandon the idea in favour of another solution such as Buffee.

My A1200 currently has a BPPC and Bvision which is an epic combination but it's just so delicate it's more of a show piece than an Amiga you can use daily.

Incidentally my most used Amigas are my A1200T which has a Blizzard 1260 and Mediator/Radeon and my CD32/TF330 which is my go to for a bit of SuperFrog

 

[HanJammer]

As long as the implementation is correct you can't tell the difference,

Oh, but I CAN tell the difference. Once the case is open (or until I look at the case (MIST)) and I see fake "CPU" instead of the real thing. FPGA/CPLD is not for people who want the real experience - it's just a cheap, fake way to pretend you have a hardware you don't really have. If you start doing then you can as well buy a keyrah, hookup the Amiga keyboard to the PC and start telling people this is real hardware lol.

Retrocomputing is about using REAL, period correct hardware. Also I'm a rational guy and for modern purposes I do use modern hardware. I don't need to pretend Amiga which is long dead now can still be something it wasn't designed to be (same with 8-bit machines) - so period correct performance and CPU selection is how it's supposed to be used.

And strictly for the retrogaming you can easly live with the software emulator on a PC or RPi.

But i do agree in that using a "REAL" amiga including the annoyances (...) is part of the "fun".

Exactly.

PS: As for the Terrible Fire I was referring to OCS/ECS Amigas - AGA Amigas have no purpose for me, because (unlike OCS/ECS Amigas) everything they could do - PCs of the same period could already do better/faster/nicer.

 

[hammer]

I would not. It's not real vintage CPU based accelerator, it's not real vintage silicone, it's not real retrocomputing experience. It's just an emulation. If start using FPGA then you can as well switch to a software based emulator.

If you are looking for more performance but can't afford/find real period correct accelerator then buy Terrible Fire for example.

Think of Apollo's AC68080 like AMD x86 cloner for 68K CPU family. AMD's K12 ARMv8-A (​AArch64) clone with Zen related R&D.

Most modern X86 PCs are *retro* capable due to intact IBM PC compatible via UEFI's CSM.

My TF1260 with MC68LC060 is in transit. Motorola's genuine 68K is like Intel's genuine X86.

Note that 68060 translates (decodes) 68K CISC into RISC like an Intel Pentium Pro P6 with instruction issue rate similar to the classic Pentium P5 and 32-bit 80486 like frontside bus.
68060's design is different from pure CISC 68000/68020/68030 designs.

68060 does not have Pentium Pro's out-of-order processing i.e. 68060 is in-order processing like classic Pentium P5.

Apollo's AC68080 expands on MC68060's design concepts into Pentium MMX with Intel Core 2's four instruction issue per cycle rate. Intel Core i9-9900K series are still part of P6 family as its recent evolved form. Intel reverse from Pentium IV (P7) family and continue to iterate and evolve from Pentium M (P6) which is based on Pentium III (P6).

68060 is 68K's classic Pentium P5/Pentium Pro P6 design counterpart.

PiStorm with ARM CPU does not fund the continuation for 68K CPU family.

 

[Havie]

PS: As for the Terrible Fire I was referring to OCS/ECS Amigas - AGA Amigas have no purpose for me, because (unlike OCS/ECS Amigas) everything they could do - PCs of the same period could already do better/faster/nicer.

That's fine but I think you'll find a lot of A1200 (and A4000 owners) who disagree with you!

And having a Vampire in my 1200 doesn't detract from it's retroness for me - still loads floppy games, still using the clicky 1200 keyboard, normal scart output, same mouse etc. feels like an Amiga to me, just a hell of a lot faster...and I don't look under the hood on a daily basis just to see the neat, super fast and need no cooling accelerator.

 

[miggymad]

^^ What Havie said

 

[Sardine]

^^ what they said and I would go as far as putting a Mist FPGA inside an amiga case now there is a usb fdd solution that read amiga disks ( inc non dos disks ) in real time on a pc.

you can boot an amiga game directly from disk , no ADF required.

ive already signed up for one in the hope the mist gets support then if you dont look under the hood it will behave just like any amiga you select. even down to the idle head click waiting for a floppy disk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ0g7lQQVus


https://amiga.robsmithdev.co.uk/

 

[HanJammer]

PS: As for the Terrible Fire I was referring to OCS/ECS Amigas - AGA Amigas have no purpose for me, because (unlike OCS/ECS Amigas) everything they could do - PCs of the same period could already do better/faster/nicer.

That's fine but I think you'll find a lot of A1200 (and A4000 owners) who disagree with you!

They can disagree as much as they want but it doesn't make me wrong or make them right.

Like I said - if somebody's retrocomputing experience is about using software only then fine - you can use fake solutions like Vampire or PiStorm but it's not really different from using software emulator on a PC or RPi for example (you can even go as far as using original case and keyboard if you want).

For me retrocomputing is using real period correct computer (from time to time I do however use modern peripheral devices like Gotek or LCD monitors - just because of laziness and lack of desk space).

And like I said - Amiga is dead. It was since the 90s - there's no real point in further improving it's performance it will never replace modern PC, Macs or even ARM platforms (irony is the current performance improving solutions cost heaps of money compared to PC parts, while in the 80s Amiga was the cheap replacement for the PC).

 

[Havie]

NO right or wrong here, just different opinions.

I have an SD/CF solution of virtually all my hardware and playing Mario 64 from Everdrive feels the same as playing it from the original cartridge! By your definition, even using a CF/SD as a replacement hard disk isn't using your Amiga in a retro way as this solution wasn't around back in the day!

It all comes down to personal preference and if it works for you...

And without starting a debate, as far as I am aware, an FPGA solution isn't emulation but an actual recreation of the hardware at a hardware level so it is the nearest you'll get to an actual new CPU now days. Not sure I buy into the 60080 stuff but as I do like finally running Quake at (more than) playable speed and it revolutionizes AB3D2! Next step are the 060 demos that I have never got to run.

 

[HanJammer]

And without starting a debate, as far as I am aware, an FPGA solution isn't emulation but an actual recreation of the hardware at a hardware level so

No man, FPGA is emulation at a hardware level.

To emulate means to imitate or mimic - when it's not a real chip or at least exact replica (down to the design of the silicone die), then it is emulation.

 

[Sardine]

And without starting a debate, as far as I am aware, an FPGA solution isn't emulation but an actual recreation of the hardware at a hardware level so

No man, FPGA is emulation at a hardware level.

To emulate means to imitate or mimic - when it's not a real chip or at least exact replica (down to the design of the silicone die), then it is emulation.

that could mean anything, so every TV in the world is emulating the original design ?? or every print or copy of the Mona Lisa is emulation ??

FPGA is a circuit recreation / copy ( not emulation as emulation is to give the same results from different methods )


for example to "emulate" super mario then you would break down the rom and work out how mario is displayed how the sounds are done and what language the code is in etc and then try to match the same OUTPUT decoding the "rom" in real time trying to display the same results as the real hardware all done with clever programming called an emulator.

FPGA does not care about what the output is or what mario looks, sounds like or what language is used, FPGA recreates at circuit level the inner working of the graphics, sound chips and cpu etc and the rom is fed to the fpga circuits as is and if the circuits are COPIED ( not emulated ) correctly then the output will match real hardware.


FPGA is real hardware, its not a program running an other hardware , its not instruction conversion or emulation of any kind, there is no pre-programmed "exe" that converts the mario rom to run, it IS the real hardware laid out in the array.


FPGA is NOT original hardware but it's also NOT emulation.

 

[HanJammer]

that could mean anything, so every TV in the world is emulating the original design ?? or every print or copy of the Mona Lisa is emulation ??

Words do have very specific, concrete meaning. Sticking to it assures mutual understanding. So please stop bending the words to fit your point of view

Print or copy of the Mona Lisa is - what you said - a print (reprographic copy) or a copy. If the copy is very good then we can call it a replica, reproduction.

FPGA is a circuit recreation / copy ( not emulation as emulation is to give the same results from different methods )

IT IS EMULATION
It perfectly fits the definition. Even the bridgeboard cards for Zorro slots were called PC emulators (when it fact they were pretty much true x86 computers with the real silicone) because they allowed Amigas to mimic the IBM PC/AT so it fitted the meaning perfectly.

(...)
FPGA does not care about what the output is or what mario looks, sounds like or what language is used, FPGA recreates at circuit level the inner working of the graphics, sound chips and cpu etc and the rom is fed to the fpga circuits as is and if the circuits are COPIED ( not emulated ) correctly then the output will match real hardware.

They are emulated (and while the software may run perfectly well on them because it's transparent to the software), I would say the hardware side of things is a bit well, cumbersome, because FPGAs are not really designed for general computing - rather specific applications (and in general computing it comes with a host of quirks and problems which may not be very visible or important when emulating such old chips like 68k family).

FPGA is real hardware, its not a program running an other hardware , its not instruction conversion or emulation of any kind, there is no pre-programmed "exe" that converts the mario rom to run, it IS the real hardware laid out in the array.

FPGA is NOT original hardware but it's also NOT emulation.

Again - it is hardware emulation. One silicon chip mimics the other silicon chip. It emulates it. Do you even know how the FPGAs are looking internally? It's nothing like the real CPU so it doesn't even matter that somebody hardcoded the chip to behave like one - it's as emulated as WinUAE running on x86 just by a different means.

 

[Sardine]

FPGA is an actual hardware implementation. The gates in the FPGA really do reconfigure themselves to be a certain CPU, video chip, etc.


example

real chip

5 * 5 = 25

FPGA

5 * 5 = 25

emulation

? = 25 ( we now have to guess on a very fast CPU with lots of ram how this was worked out in real time and with trial and error see what works with a lot of custom code ) 1*25 , 1+24 , 28 - 3 , and SO on until that part of the code starts to work.

then there is the order of the code

FPGA behaves Exactly like real hardware everything runs as it should to an exact cycle in the order it was meant to, also at the correct speed, no 3ghz i5 with 4gb of ram required to emulate a cycle accurate z80 cpu but on fpga the z80 runs at 1mhz in the same space required by the real chip with the same logic and gates so its a copy and not being emulated by a complex set of instructions , lookup tables, there are NO cpu or programming preset in fpga just the layout of a z80 , 68000 , ymsound chip aga chipset etc when layout is done..

but as with emulation as in the Billy Mitchell case , it was proved he used mame emulation due how mame incorrectly draws the screen tiles. not as in real hardware as does Mist FPGA correctly draws the screen exactly like real hardware.

in fact a different rom runs fine on the DK hardware because the FPGA layout is a hardware reproduction 1 to 1 of the real chips. nothing is emulated just copied / cloned.


so what if I use tens of thousands of transistors to represent an x86 cpu ?? the size of a warehouse buts its not emulation just because it was re-created differently.


Mona Lisa copied by a painter dot for dot is fpga
Mona Lisa emulated would be a painter in a different room having the Mona Lisa explained to the painter and the painter guessing best he/she can, the better the description the more accurate the emulated Mona lisa would be, never perfect or exactly the same.


quote from elsewhere

Now, "arbitrarily" picking Gyruss (because it's a favorite game) it has:


2x Z80


5x Ay-3-8910


1x DAC


1x 8039


1x 6809





Consider that's 10 processors, 9 if you skip the sound DAC. Plus all the housekeeping like ram/rom & memory mapping, video, controllers, and glue to bring it all together. An FPGA is going have each of these cores and other circuitry "running" simultaneously. Because it IS the actual circuit! The FPGA has become the circuit. Each gate from the target (6502 for example) has an equivalent dedicated gate wired up in the FPGA.





Whereas an emulator is going to run them sequentially. With the input of one device waiting on the output of another, right on down the line till one clock cycle is completed.