Implications of Brexit

[Harrison]

If a crash happens in a similar fashion to 2008 and we have remained in the EU it will be worse for us as we will be required to put large amounts of money in to bail out the worst failing countries again. Spain, Ireland and Greece especially. If we leave we are not legally obliged to do anything.

Another point someone mentioned regarding large business supported the stay campaign. Businesses do not like unpredictable futures. They like to know a certain projection and targeted outcome. They want everything to remain the same. Leaving will enter everyone into an unknown and new future. It will shake everything up and I for one think it would be a good thing. It would give people jobs restructuring the future of how companies run and trade in a new future free from EU trading restrictions and regulation.

The EU is going to fail eventually. It's best not to be a part of it when this happens.

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[ptyerman]

@cugar124

Ptyerman I am someone to tell you to vote me and my brothers my Father and grandfather and his father fought and died to give those lazy good for nothings the chance to vote only for them to fail. I believe we should do as the Aussies and make it illegal to not vote would be a start then maybe we could get a true idea of the populations views

That's all well and good, but you need to re-read the posts. Nowhere have I or anyone else suggested that I am not going to vote. You have no right whatsoever to tell anyone what to do with their vote, this is not a dictatorship! Anyway thanks, because of your dictatorial views and telling me how to vote, I will now do the opposite and vote leave, you have helped make my mind up.

 

[protek]

This thread has has turned into political debate, pretty much from the beginning, even though the original question was the practical implications to us AmiBayers in regards of our hobby. Nevertheless, as long as the debate stays civilized, I won't mind.

 

[cugar124]

I think thats the whole point and shows the three positions,
1. those that will vote to leave and give the power to those that have done nothing but destroy our country and the working classes
2. those that dont care and will not vote and lastly
3. those that see a little britian adrift on her own and being worth nothing and know the only way forward is in the Union.

So vote how u see fit but vote and as for the dictator comment i hope u enjoy Torie power and their greed because if the vote goes leave the crazy cuts they just started are only the beginning. Once the money starts to run out its going to be horrendous me I dont care Poland is looking good to me lower wages but plenty of work and cheaper housing yes they have corruption but we have it on the same scale just the British are too blind to see it or just don't want to have not really figured that out but if Boris Johnson is envolved you know it can't be good the man is a nightmare.

As for our beloved Amiga i remember the old import taxes plus have been caught with import taxes from the us so something to think about.

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[Pghulme]

If a crash happens in a similar fashion to 2008 and we have remained in the EU it will be worse for us as we will be required to put large amounts of money in to bail out the worst failing countries again. Spain, Ireland and Greece especially. If we leave we are not legally obliged to do anything.

This is true, but on the flip side, if we need help then we would be bailed out! If we leave do we have any support or bail out options? I think a lot of people don't take into account when the UK entered the EU we were on our bum financially and did get help from Europe

 

[Bryce]

As the discussion was originally about the implications for Retro trade etc, here's a real life effect that I'm pretty pleased about: On the 6th of June I ordered a product from a UK company (not a retro computer). The price is 1185GBP which I have to pay by the end of the month. On the 6th, this would have cost me €1528. Today it will cost me only €1487 and by the 22nd it will probably be a lot cheaper for me Guess what day I intend transferring the money?

Bryce.

 

[moggsie]

If a crash happens in a similar fashion to 2008 and we have remained in the EU it will be worse for us as we will be required to put large amounts of money in to bail out the worst failing countries again. Spain, Ireland and Greece especially. If we leave we are not legally obliged to do anything.

I think a lot of people don't take into account when the UK entered the EU we were on our bum financially and did get help from Europe

I've heard that too but actually UK GDP peaked prior to EEC/EU membership and has been in decline ever since. Britain was on it's a**e at the start of the 70's mainly due to the oil crisis (not our fault) and the 'three day week' (our fault due to a weak government and militant unions). Our bail out in 1976 came from the IMF not from Europe.

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This thread has has turned into political debate, pretty much from the beginning, even though the original question was the practical implications to us AmiBayers in regards of our hobby. Nevertheless, as long as the debate stays civilized, I won't mind.

Thank you. Nothing I enjoy more than a good mass debate!

 

[protek]

As the discussion was originally about the implications for Retro trade etc, here's a real life effect that I'm pretty pleased about: On the 6th of June I ordered a product from a UK company (not a retro computer). The price is 1185GBP which I have to pay by the end of the month. On the 6th, this would have cost me €1528. Today it will cost me only €1487 and by the 22nd it will probably be a lot cheaper for me Guess what day I intend transferring the money?

Bryce.

Oh yeah, the Pound has been getting cheaper.

 

[Bryce]

Yup, good time to expand my Spectrum / Acorn / Jupiter / Amstrad collections!

Bryce.

 

[ptyerman]

@cugar124
This is so tiresome!
You obviously have still failed to read the previous posts or at the very least, failed to understand them. I'm not going to repeat myself, but will say all this has already been mentioned in a earlier post.
Plus I think most of us on here have been stung with import taxes at some time or another, it's put several hundred pounds on some of my purchases from Canada and the USA. That's always been the same, even in the 70's and before.

 

[WHiZZi]

I'm not from the UK, but I've been there for my job as a musician for multiple weeks (though I had to stop doing that, long story but irrelevant for this).

What I'm as a foreigner annoyed about, is the reason why UK-people think they'll be better off without EU. I'm from the Netherlands and I'm not against EU, but I can't be considered pro either. The EU makes entire Europe stronger in the world economy. Especially with threats from both sides and we're in the middle of it all. I mean, USA is constantly provocating Russia by putting army bases round the border while Russia is doing exactly the same by sending airplanes in the air and just going over Europe without telling anyone about them. At least a few times per year (that I know of) there's an interception done of a Russian army airplane over the Netherlands/England/Norway because they don't say what the hell they are doing there.

Back to UK. As a foreigner I consider UK as poor. Sure, big cities look like they have money but I've been to smaller places and everywhere you can find a homeless guy and houses look terribly old. Roads are bad and I've heard that owning a car is really extremely expensive (insurance etc), let alone actually owning a house.

So, what I'm hearing of people who want to get out of Europe:
- Immigrants / Border Control
Sorry, but UK is the only bloody country in the entire EU where I have to show my passport in order to get there by car. If it's not about that, but about the immigrants stealing your jobs. Well, perhaps the companies should be addressed for that (or maybe you should do your work better?) and if it's about wellfare, that's something your country decides.. not EU.

- UK pays a lot of money to EU
Yep. But the Netherlands, France, Germany and Denmark pay more.

- We cannot vote for the people leading EU.
True. These people get in / voted by the leaders of every country. Aaaaaand, you guys choose them.. So, in a way, you choose who's leading Europe by voting for the political party of your liking. Besides, do you really want to vote for people who you never heard of?

- EU gives money to poor countries
You mean, devaluating the euro? Yeh, I don't like that either .. but wait, you guys don't pay with the Euro are you? Oh wow, you guys have an amazing deal with EU already.. and still complaining?

In the Netherlands we also have a political party who wants to get out of the EU. But most Dutch citizens with at least some intelligence doesn't vote for him. Mostly, because he's full of air. He yells a lot, talks a lot about all the problems (probably caused by muslims) but in the end, he doesn't have a solution.

And this last thing, is exactly what buggers me the most of UK wanting to leave. They don't have a decent plan for after leaving, except the guys on the lead who have control over everything (including all the money). I don't think English people realise that England relies a lot of International markets. Even your (delicious) H.P. sauce is produced in The Netherlands so you'll have to import that. I think the biggest export product of England was 'Top Gear', because there's no oil, gas or anything important what can't be found somewhere else. So, what would you have left to sell to other countries in order to keep your country running? Cars, those are all either GM, VAG or BMW, nothing British about that anymore?

But hey, I'm only Dutch and I'm seeing a country struggle and blaming the wrong people for it. After all, you voted the current leading party at some point and they ****ed up a lot and putting all the blame on EU.

 

[Allen1]

I have just re-read the entire thread and there are some pretty level headed points being made about stay or leave.
As mentioned in my previous post, the main problem for me is TTIP and all the secrecy that it entails, why is the EU allowed to get away with something as major as this without the will of the people it is meant to work for. I am also a member of 38 Degrees who have pointed out A top lawyer’s just announced that TTIP, the dangerous US-EU trade deal, poses a “real and serious risk” to the NHS. He’s said that if the deal goes ahead as it is, privatisation of our NHS could be irreversible. There is a lot more than that but its a starting point for me, i also mentioned that CaMORON wants this deal to go through, we are still in the EU but look at what has already happened in the UK under this government and note that the EU has not actually stopped any of it from happening, where is the protection that we should have had from governments intent on making the lives of the vulnerable even worse than they already are?

I am 60 now and have seen enough stuff in my time to realize that those above us are crapping on all of us below and are getting away with it!

It is about time we came away from the EU and got our government to start doing the job they were elected to do which is to look after its people and not to persecute them and to take responsibility for their actions as there will no longer be an EU excuse to fall back on.

 

[Amon_RA]

1. Blame the EU for UK 'issues".
2. Step out of the EU.
3. Notice that the problem was not EU but UK democratically elected "leadership".
4. Try to change UK leadership but fail miserably.
5. Beg to get back into the EU.

Clean up your own room first before you start cleaning the entire house. Removing the room from the house will not magically make it clean. You'll just lose access to the other rooms of the house, and the house will look ridiculous without your room.

The reason the EU fails is because some countries/people don't think as an European first. They only want what is best for them personally (using their own currency, demanding some special privileges, etc), and just want the worst for the others. You can't blame the EU if you don't want to be part of it. The EU will only work if you're willing to be and feel European first.

 

[CrazyC]

1. The EU will only work if you're willing to be and feel European first.

But that is exactly it. Many British people do not and will not think of themselves as European first. Hence, for them, the EU does not work.

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1. Blame the EU for UK 'issues".
2. Step out of the EU.
3. Notice that the problem was not EU but UK democratically elected "leadership".
4. Try to change UK leadership but fail miserably.
5. Beg to get back into the EU.

.

Perhaps not having the EU to blame will indeed highlight the shortcomings of the democratically elected leadership, but I would argue that this should increase the likelihood of them being punished at the ballot box.
If a significant majority of the UK vote for a different set of leaders, the the leadership will change. (so why would the UK fail miserably at changing its leadership)

And in answer to an earlier post that suggested that as we elect our leaders and they elect the EU leaders - it doesn't matter if we completely change our leaders, they are one voice in many and so we have no real say in electing the EU leaders.

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For me the EU as currently stands is an unsustainable half way house. It has extended far more than a trading area but has not gone far enough to become a unified bloc. The endgame has always really been a Federal Europe, and for a smaller group of countries I am not at all against that - it makes some sense. The problem is that it has been forced for political reasons on a larger group of countries than are ready for it, and this has meant that they have not integrated anywhere near enough. Having the UK involved does not help as I doubt we will be ready to take part in that during my lifetime, and so all we will do is be a constant drag and block on the progress that needs to be made.
If the project is to move forwards then I believe it will require a smaller group to move much closer, and a secondary group to fall back to a trading area type arrangement. Integration would continue when populations desire it because they see it working. Forcing the issue will likely destroy the whole project.

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Sorry, but UK is the only bloody country in the entire EU where I have to show my passport in order to get there by car.

Republic of Ireland?
And aren't there 4 more countries aren't yet in Schengen?

 

[Amon_RA]

But that is exactly it. Many British people do not and will not think of themselves as European first. Hence, for them, the EU does not work.

Ok, and why do they not feel and think of themselves as Europeans first?
Being European first isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it?

Less Europe = less unity = less partnerships on economical, political, military, etc levels = less influence on shaping the world to your own likings.

Do we really want to live in a world that is ruled by the US, Russia and China alone? Do we want to be the puppet of the US because we are just a bunch of small countries that can't even agree on the stupid things?
Stepping out of Europe is like handing over the power to those that will have full control over you because you will be so tiny that your opinion doesn't matter anymore.
Europe has been divided for ages, we had conflicts that turned neighboring countries against eachother for no good reason...

Do we really want to return to this, have we not learned any lessons?

"United we stand, divided we fall"

 

[Pghulme]

But that is exactly it. Many British people do not and will not think of themselves as European first. Hence, for them, the EU does not work.

Ok, and why do they not feel and think of themselves as Europeans first?
Being European first isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it?

Less Europe = less unity = less partnerships on economical, political, military, etc levels = less influence on shaping the world like to your own likings.

Do we really want to live in a world that is ruled by the US, Russia and China alone? Do we want to be the puppet of the US because we are just a bunch of small countries that can't even agree on the stupid things?
Stepping out of Europe is like handing over the power to those that will have full control over you because you will be so tiny that your opinion doesn't matter anymore.
Europe has been divided for ages, we had conflicts that turned neighboring countries against eachother for no good reason...

Do we really want to return to this, have we not learned any lessons?

"United we stand, divided we fall"

I don't know why here in UK we don't see ourselves as European, I guess its a culture thing I think.

 

[amigean]

Nobody in Europe sees themselves as "European" by default. It is a triumph of reason over emotion to think in these terms, to see the big picture.

 

[CrazyC]

Stepping out of Europe is like handing over the power to those that will have full control over you because you will be so tiny that your opinion doesn't matter anymore.

The problem is that for whatever reason, for a certain amount of the UK population, that is how being in the EU feels. Maybe in the UK we are just too stubborn / different / awkward?

Being European first isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it?

Not at all, but as far as I know, most of the UK population just don't have that instinct. Maybe its a cultural/historical thing, having always been an island. Maybe its a hangover from the old days of the Empire etc. It just is what it is.
To the vast majority of people in the UK, what is best for Europe is not a concern when it comes to this decision, its about what they think is best for the UK. (as far as I can see).

 

[cugar124]

No not failed just fed up with the half thruths of both sides and people like u who think they are smarter than everyone else. I will vote stay even though i dont want turkey in or unlimited immigration. So lets see how it ends. Good luck to both camps lets hope the losing side will honour the will of the people but dont hold your breath hey ptyerman.

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[CrazyC]

Nobody in Europe sees themselves as "European" by default. It is a triumph of reason over emotion to think in these terms, to see the big picture.

If reason triumphed over emotion then there would be no reason for me to have an Amiga worth probably twice (in fact maybe more) what my normal PC is worth. There would certainly be no reason for me to have a Blizzard 1260 at all. However, strangely I cannot force myself to part with it.....