Very well said.
No returns, no replacements, no warranties. Private sale.
- Thread starter Sardine
- Start date
- Replies 82
- Views 1522
100%, but the act of shipping items is stressful for old items. Shipping is a requirement to broaden geographic range limitations for all for item access. Some areas are very cold, will that cold shrinking cause some points to crack/lose contact? Or hot. Or humid. Should the seller take the responsibility for the fact that you live in a cold climate? Or should the buyer? Let's say it is 50/50 on that responsibility, deadlock. Well, as a buyer do you want that item? Do you want to take the risk by accepting the seller's terms and unlock the deadlock? Each has the right to accept these risks. If a seller declines, it is their right. If the buyer declines it is their right. In the end, to quote the POTUS, you've got to deploy "The Art of The Deal".
But I stand by my assessment. The seller has complete right to cash'n'carry rules of a sale for their items just as buyer has complete right to not give their money to the seller.
Perhaps in all this circling of this subject AmiBaY can allow "Declare Interest" on AS-IS items some more buyer deal rights?
If a seller can have rightful ability to demand as-is on items they are seller, such listing should be allowed to declare interest with offers for seller consideration after 48 hours of listing.
As in, OK, I accept your as-is item, but not for $200, but for $150. And seller can consider such offers.
In essence a "default offers accepted" or "default offers accepted after 48 hours" on AS-IS/no-returns items.
All I see from this is @YouKnowWho is you are essentially willing to allow the seller send you a dead/broken item and have no comeback.
This is true, that I have indeed allowed broken items to come to me. Perhaps this is my broader retro tolerance of other retro items spreading to computers.
What it comes down to is simple - each coin has two sides. We're buyers and sellers. And nowadays, many often want to have it their way regardless. But as I said, when you sell you 100% have the right to set terms, and when you buy you 100% have the right to vote with your wallet.
And let us remember, we're talking about some fringe scenarios here that represent a small percentage of transactions.
Allowing this also allows for the not so honest among us to sell defective parts as working, granted they wont get away with it to often but you are giving them the opportunity to do so.
So I have just been googling ref sellers responsibilities in private sales and this is what I get from AI. Now I know AI is not perfect but it usually find the correct information and for the few countries I looked at they more or less all say the buyer must receive what has been described.
Even Canada
Even Canada
UK says this
I understand different parts of the world will have different rules but from all I have had a brief look at they are all very similar.
While I very rarely sell hardware items, I do not think non DOA guarantee can be applied to all types of items.
Yes, it could and probably should apply to complete systems, but most of the items sold here require some form of installation (e.g. clockport expansions, megachip agnus replacements, many socket based accelerators, etc.). For this reason, I do not think seller should take responsibility for someone's installation errors, damaged or previosly worked-on motherboards, incorrect cable orientations, etc.
Many in this thread take as an example buyers being stuck with non working items and lost money, but nobody takes sellers' side. Let's say an inexperienced buyer buys and receives a working clockport sound card (shown working with photos). He then proceeds to installation, plugs the cable incorrectly and fries it. Claims it to be DOA and request a refund from the seller. Why would buyer be entitled to a refund and seller would end up with a broken card and no money, when they did nothing wrong here?
However, based on the sentiment shown in this thread it seems the mods are leaning toward adding a non-DOA clause to hardware sales. My suggestion is to think this thoroughly and make it clear for which types of items it should apply.
Personally I would be OK to have it applied to sales of complete systems or to a hardware NOT requiring complex installation (common A1200/3000/4000 accelerators, side expansions, zorro cards, many i/o devices), but even this would have to have some time limit being set to prevent abuse (i.e. 48hrs following delivery).
Anything that requires socket installations/IC removals, installations that can short something should not be applicable for this guarantee. Obviously this would require creating an eligibility criteria list, but if we want to be fair and protect both sides, then I think this is necesarry.
Hope the above makes sense
Yes, it could and probably should apply to complete systems, but most of the items sold here require some form of installation (e.g. clockport expansions, megachip agnus replacements, many socket based accelerators, etc.). For this reason, I do not think seller should take responsibility for someone's installation errors, damaged or previosly worked-on motherboards, incorrect cable orientations, etc.
Many in this thread take as an example buyers being stuck with non working items and lost money, but nobody takes sellers' side. Let's say an inexperienced buyer buys and receives a working clockport sound card (shown working with photos). He then proceeds to installation, plugs the cable incorrectly and fries it. Claims it to be DOA and request a refund from the seller. Why would buyer be entitled to a refund and seller would end up with a broken card and no money, when they did nothing wrong here?
However, based on the sentiment shown in this thread it seems the mods are leaning toward adding a non-DOA clause to hardware sales. My suggestion is to think this thoroughly and make it clear for which types of items it should apply.
Personally I would be OK to have it applied to sales of complete systems or to a hardware NOT requiring complex installation (common A1200/3000/4000 accelerators, side expansions, zorro cards, many i/o devices), but even this would have to have some time limit being set to prevent abuse (i.e. 48hrs following delivery).
Anything that requires socket installations/IC removals, installations that can short something should not be applicable for this guarantee. Obviously this would require creating an eligibility criteria list, but if we want to be fair and protect both sides, then I think this is necesarry.
Hope the above makes sense
With all due respect @Timtheloon, would not allowing it eliminate that opportunity? Of course it wouldn't. What's the saying? Scammers gonna scam.
Yes, this is why for a seller it makes perfect sense to note AS-IS, because...well...private seller. Remember one thing: sellers provide the inventory of retro goods we crave. Discourage sellers and where do we end up?
I like every comment because you’re all right, even if the opinions differ slightly.
When I read “no returns” in a description, everything else is invisible to me. I focus on the fact that there is no return and act accordingly.
I won’t directly single out a specific sales thread, but there is a very reputable seller who sells an item as “no return” and has many dozens of buyers, with just as many others waiting in line. Yet I don’t see anyone commenting on that.. Why does he have a place on Amibay while others don’t?
When I read “no returns” in a description, everything else is invisible to me. I focus on the fact that there is no return and act accordingly.
I won’t directly single out a specific sales thread, but there is a very reputable seller who sells an item as “no return” and has many dozens of buyers, with just as many others waiting in line. Yet I don’t see anyone commenting on that.. Why does he have a place on Amibay while others don’t?
I have experianced this situation once or twice but, thankfully I never lost money. I sold a fully working PC motherboard and the buyer claimed it wasn't working correctly. I gave him some tech support and then asked him if he had grounded the motherboard. He came back to me and stated that he had not installed the motherboard correctly and a few screws were loose.
I was happy he figured out what he had done but, at the same time, I was thinking, what if he had damaged the Motherboard, he would have most likely filed a claim.
From that day on I decided to make videos for my own peace of mind with all electronics I sell.
@damiraga this is the most compelling argument against DOA, the buyer installation process which the buyer could of destroyed the item during install which can happen and then buyer claims DOA.
But it doesn't remove the need to protect both parties so insured shipping should be offered to ensure you are covered for loss and damage and as I said if the buyer decides not to take the insurance then the buyer takes on the risk.
I feel we have to look at this as guidelines rather than "set in stone rules which must be followed" because when it comes to the point where the seller & buyer cant work things out it will then fall to the moderators to try and resolve the issue and we will be asking questions in a set of guidelines because, like the payments guideline we give if you use PayPal Friends & Family and things go wrong we cannot get you your money back. The most we can do is stop the seller from trading on the platform if we feel the seller is being unreasonable in the situation and that goes for the buyer too. Don't get me wrong we are not personally out to make it harder for sellers we are just stating that they can't absolve themselves from the fact they have to deliver it as described.
But it doesn't remove the need to protect both parties so insured shipping should be offered to ensure you are covered for loss and damage and as I said if the buyer decides not to take the insurance then the buyer takes on the risk.
I feel we have to look at this as guidelines rather than "set in stone rules which must be followed" because when it comes to the point where the seller & buyer cant work things out it will then fall to the moderators to try and resolve the issue and we will be asking questions in a set of guidelines because, like the payments guideline we give if you use PayPal Friends & Family and things go wrong we cannot get you your money back. The most we can do is stop the seller from trading on the platform if we feel the seller is being unreasonable in the situation and that goes for the buyer too. Don't get me wrong we are not personally out to make it harder for sellers we are just stating that they can't absolve themselves from the fact they have to deliver it as described.
You're welcome.
Yes, that DOA thing can happen. And then how do you prove the DOA when the failure is caused by static, or mishandling, or installation damage that's not physically visible? Manufacturers have DOA policies and deny claims after a certain period of time since shipment, which allows them to then replace your new DOA item with refurbished replacement under warranty. Retailers often/usually extend manufacturer DOA terms, and not their own, in essence having no DOA terms of their own. As in, DOA not accepted. Instead, they utilize their return contract terms with the manufacturer, which allow them to accept a return and send it back to manufacturer for full credit. All of these things an individual seller of a 30 or 40 year old piece of vintage retro hardware doesn't have. Are they to be expected to provide this and absorb the cost and liability for the purchasers? It could make selling a real headache. It could discourage sellers. It could dry up inventory. I ask again, where do we end up then? And I ask this as by far an overwhelming buyer of items and an occasional seller. I will also admit that these discussions serve to discourage my desire to sell items. This potential trouble vs. benefit of selling - I'll just keep it in a pile of unused stuff then. And so...less potential inventory and opportunities for others to get an item, even if an occasionally only.
As for insurance, does insurance not require declaration of value for the purpose of duties/taxes/tariffs?
. Also, is DOA due to user damage covered by insurance or is insurance for the purpose of shipping damage? Would a claim under shipping insurance for DOA damage due to installation not be fraud with a big "F"?Look @Timtheloon, I'm not trying to be argumentative with you. I am just trying to see scenarios and to simplify this down. And to me it doesn't get simpler than when you sell you 100% have the right to set terms, and when you buy you 100% have the right to vote with your wallet.
Well, that's mighty sweet of you @Watson. But not all sellers are the same in ability, time, or knowledge. Say someone is selling their dad's collection (I know, I know...a sad scenario) and they have no knowledge about it. Happens often. We had a thread about this very issue some time back. Can we hold this person to expectations to give the buyer tech support? Is it fair for them to just list and say "AS-IS, no returns"? 100% absolutely! Just as it will be fair of us to choose not to buy their stuff. Or to buy it!gave him some tech support and then asked him if he had grounded the motherboard. He came back to me and stated that he had not installed the motherboard correctly and a few screws were loose.
To protect yourself as a seller? You know what else protects you as a seller? That's right! AS-IS, NO RETURNS.
Last edited:
If you are a well known seller this is acceptable.To protect yourself as a seller? You know what else protects you as a seller? That's right! AS-IS, NO RETURNS.
If you are not, the item for sale will stay on the shelf for a long time.
@darefail well said. To me if you are a well known member on here. Then the trust factor should be there.
If you are new on here. Then should there be a mandatory waiting period before they can sell? I.e new member can buy to get the trust up perhaps? Or limit to price of a sale until a threshold has reached on good feedback?
Totally agree with the “No liability” clause.
Yes I have been guilty of selling things with the terms “No Warranty”, “Tech Support limited to none” due to a busy life. But would be more than happy to help another Member on here if they had issues with what they bought. But in the premise it will not be a help now or in 5 minutes. What people need to understand is we buy and sell to different parts of the world. Different time zones etc. play a major factor.
I know I am digressing and the Op has said more about the “No liability”, “No D.O.A”. So will there be a poll soon to put this into practice?
My take like others, is I will be transparent in what I sell. Remember that systems of 40 years or even younger can fail. Obviously everyone who is in the know, should already know this.
Here’s to Part 3 of another thread being made in the subject
Possibly. Buyers will decide. I declared interest on an item here where the seller wanted crypto as payment. Needless to say, that didn't work out. See? I made an adult decision that the deal was not worth it and voted with my wallet. Simple. Easy. Fun!
Childhood is fun because you are free and have no obligations or liability. Then adulthood, you have all these rules and restrictions. Boo! Early on in the internet eBay was a fun place. Today, it is a convicted criminal enterprise that just MEGA-sucks.
Crypto fans are all "screw central banks", "screw laws and regulations", "screw Fiat", "The code is the law!" And then when they get taken by come clever coder or exchange what happens? They go crying like babies to law enforcement agencies to bail them out. U.S.A. has basically nationalized this money-laundering tax-evading criminal enterprise payment tool. Interesting. Clearly for anyone who knows about Crypto AG, they know that Bitcoin must indeed be CIA, since there is so much American legal protection for it. Oh the money movement info and leverage CIA must have by now. Oh boy. Will be fun when that comes out. Plenty of people will sweat. And also due to crypto, Shaq is out $1.8 million too after being served and settling out of court. Poor guy.
Anyhow...I had a point and it is...we should be adults instead of developing a overly complex set of rules and regulations. When you sell you 100% have the right to set terms, and when you buy you 100% have the right to vote with your wallet.
