No warranty. No returns

[Sardine]

Just a quick what everyone thinks.

I understand items can be 40 years old

I understand something can break during shipping

But……

I don’t personally like the idea of selling a £2000 €2000 or $2000 item with the stipulation “it works here. I have taken many photos but if it arrives with issues not stated clearly in the sale thread there will be no warranty no returns no support “

I think there should be a limited time. A couple of days or so if issues arise due to either existing faults, age of components or shipping damages. Some small window of protection for the buyer.

But…

On the other hand this could be abused to get full / partial refunds or total returns on not limited too misuse, incorrect usages. Configuring incorrectly or handling various parts / expansions caused by the buyer either flagrantly in error or lack of experience.

Thoughts???

No arguments please or back and forth just what you think especially with the costs involved with 40yr old aging equipment and ideas you might have.

Cheers

Edit:

I'll just sit waiting patiently for the first draft of any new rule born as a direct result of this thread. Then go from there ...

... but until then I'm off to see if I can break another joystick playing Project X - Light Years

no new rules needed, it was just a what do you all think on DOA items and the NO warranty and NO returns on very costly items.

It's nice to see so many supporting or volunteering to accept returns if DOA, make me feel all warn and fuzzy inside ( yes i stole that from the Grinch )

 

[miggymad]

Everyone should know that nothing is guaranteed with something that's 40'ish years old.

Amibay should not get involved in such matters unless there is clear evidence of deception or fraud. What remains is for both the seller and buyer to sort out themselves to mutual satisfaction.

Caveat Emptor ... Let the buyer beware.

 

[Sardine]

its not about "nothing is guaranteed with something that's 40'ish years old." there should be some expectation of ANTHING arriving in the advertised state / condition.


and "Amibay should not get involved in such matters " I somewhat disagree, if I/we see a pattern of certain individuals always using the get out of jail card "well its old and no guarantee or support if arrives not working" and also forcing an unprotected payment method. ( yes you can decline to buy the item but if it's an item you have been looking for then it's sorta some haze of "blackmail, take it or leave it others are waiting..." )

it works both ways,, unprotected payments also protect sellers from fraudulent buyers, this is also important especially on unreliable ,unknown, infrequent or new members.

but.... if the item is "described" as fully working , no issues or damage then it's expected to be in the same condition at the point of delivery and 1st plug in.

I fully support NO DOA if advertised as fully working. I would strongly recommend the offer of shipping insurance and if the extra costs are declined then this is no fault of the seller and if the item does indeed suffer damage , visible or not during delivery this might give some protection to the buyer at no costs to the seller ??


UK law is quite slim on used goods from private sellers but this part is interesting

Private sales​

If you buy from a private seller, you won’t get the same rights as you would from a business. Under the Consumer Rights Act, a private seller is only obliged to provide goods “as described”.

So, unless the description was misleading, you don’t have the right to ask for your money back if you are unhappy with what you have bought, or if there is a problem with the item.

Campbell-Adams adds: “To protect yourself, thoroughly inspect the item before purchase, if you can, ask questions about its condition and keep written records of any correspondence.

“If issues arise, consumers can seek recourse through the Consumer Rights Act or other applicable consumer protection laws.”

Obviously with sales that come under "Distance selling rights" Don't really exist for private seller but it's up to the "forum" or "Marketplace" that it was sold on to mediate, this mediation on members with a "pattern" could restrict that members account or even permanently ban if it's believed the seller or the buyer have been misleading or fraudulent.

at the end of the day I do NOT believe any item described as fully working but old escapes the statement if it arrive dead tuff luck. Not here at Amibay, there should be some assurances either way.

It's just on how or if it can be implemented to protect buyers as well as sellers.

a possibility is some sort of of insurance ( not just shipping ) that especially on expensive items give peace of mind for a short period of time after delivery the goods are as described, Obviously if a buyer declines the added costs of specific DOA insurance then it's a roll of the dice i guess which i don't agree with to a point.

so do we leave as is and let the dice roll on a £2000 Amiga setup described as no damage fully working but on delivery a black screen , dead with no recourse for the buyer.


Thoughts everyone if this is done elsewhere with some sort of success ?

 

[Boing-ball]

I presuming it’s because I am selling an item at £2000? Where I made buyers aware of the limitations of the system for sale that this has come up?

My take is this. Amibay Admins/moderators have elaborated that if you do not wish to accept returns or do refunds of any way, then this has to be established in the sales listing. Which I have done on my current sale.
Why I have done this? Simply to try and protect me and make it absolutely clear what the future owner may or may not expect when buying a item. It is then down to that buyer to either buy or not. I am no way forcing anyone to buy an item from me. Common sense should prevail. Yes items that are new should work for a long time. But I have known new items to also fail.

On my listing I have put a lot of effort in testing and showing an item is working. By using up my free time and my electricity in doing so to try and prove I have something that is currently working before a buyer goes ahead and buys such an item. I have seen other so called quick listings do the same, but show no effort in proving an item is working or not. Now to me, this is either down to. Not enough time by the seller or it could mean being deviousness? But again explained by the Admins/Mods on here, no one is forced to do this.

My take is this. Established members on this platform should be at least given some leeway. Or there is an expectation that if you wish to sell this way, then we should all be selling as Spares or repairs? As @Sardine has pointed out, the U.K distance selling act protect private sellers. But you may also argue not all sellers on here are private sellers. So should these who are traders (Or are actually being private sellers on here but also act as Business sellers on other platforms) be the ones being targeted correctly?

Have seen many a new member on here, post a quick reply to a thread and gone straight to selling an item. Now do I then have to judge that new member on what they are selling?

Maybe the system needs changing on Amibay to make this clearer perhaps?

Anyways, that my 2 pence.

 

[miggymad]

What next?

Ban PayPal F&F payments.
Introduce a membership fee.
Charge an insurance premium on sales.

IMHO if anything like that happens, eBay will become a more attractive place to both buy and sell.

 

[davideo]

@Boing-ball I don't believe you are being targeted alone as there are other members trying to sell items at a higher price than yours with no returns etc within the description.

As for Traders they should be telling us if they are Traders. See here

If I personally purchased an item described as working I would at least expect it to work when it arrived.

If you pay for goods or use a credit card you can still as far as I know have recourse to get your money back if it's described as working and doesn't.

 

[fitzsteve]

Agreed, if you buy something described as working and it turns up dead you shouldn't be left high and dry. I understand with complex hardware there can be concerns of mishandling, etc but there has to be a risk both sides you can't stick it all on the buyer and say no backsies lol. I recently sold an item that was working here and arrived dead, I gave a full refund. You can check my recently sold items if you like.

The only time I have said I won't get involved is when a buyer insisted on a cheap surface mail without any tracking or insurance. In fact, the item was lost and I was able to get them some compensation and it took a long time but I made them wait. Of course I was up front from the start about that arrangement.

 

[fitzsteve]

Just to elaborate on the above, I'm speaking from a moral standpoint, whether or not mods should get involved etc is another matter.

Most deals here are done between reasonable people and I'd like to think genuine buyers/sellers will work something out when there's an issue..

 

[tbtorro]

+1 Just what Steve said above. "genuine buyers/sellers will work something out when there's an issue"

Which means it should be up to the seller what terms he offers. If some seller wants the sale to be more atractive offering returns or some limited warranty - that's perfectly fine. However I'm not a big fan of enforced sales conditions regardless of item value.

Even if there is some issues of clear abuse of people selling faulty items with no returns or warranty, this will not prevent "one timers" to defraud people.

 

[qz3fwd]

If an item is listed as functional, then it should arrive functional at the buyers receipt. That is my take.

I remember when I was new here and questioned the prevalent (expected) PP F&F terms for high dollar value purchases those here acted as if I had insulted them.

Personally I would rather pay the PP fee as required for sales listings.

 

[YouKnowWho]

I bought things as non-working, but they worked just fine. I returned them to the seller so he could resell them for way more money as working. /s

This hobby will flame out in a giant pile of bureaucracy, isn't it?

 

[nickrb]

I have purchased two DOA items on Amibay (an Apollo 1240 that worked only intermittently and a Z3660 that never worked at all).

In the end I just took losses in both cases.

I probably won't buy from those sellers again. Luckily I just lost a few hundred bucks both times instead of a larger amount of money.

As a seller, if a working item that I sell arrives DOA I would take it back. I've never had that happen on Amibay but one time that happened on an eBay sale when an item was damaged in shipping. I believe that is the ethical choice.

 

[HomeLate]

Always consider user (buyer) error. I repaired a lot of Amiga's in the past because of user error. For instance 'I plugged in my 1084S while the A4000 or A500 was switched on' or 'I accidentally inserted that Zorro card the wrong way' changes into 'Hey, it wasn't running out of the box'.

eBay is another matter. I received a lot of items doa while these were advertised as working. You're backed by eBay's buyer protection, but sometimes it isn't worth shipping items back because I've paid customs tax (US/UK).

 

[Watson]

I recently purchased something listed as spares or repair, no returns but, I returned it due to discrepancies in the description when the item arrived. If the item does not match what you advertise, working or not, the buyer has the recourse to return, if of course they paid with a protected payment method. I would advise anyone selling faulty goods to be honest about what is actually for sale

 

[darefail]

With regard to @nickrb's post, I have to say that it is unacceptable for an item to arrive DOA and for the seller to refuse to take it back. I don’t know to what extent Amibay can get involved in this, but at the very least each case should be made known in the respective sales thread so that everyone is informed.

Personally, as a seller, I’ve had issues three times and all three times I accepted the item back at my cost. In two out of the three cases the item was fully functional, but what could I do? I was obliged to take it back.

When I see something being sold as no warranty, no returns, etc., I immediately erase it from my sight. I’ve said before that some people like the risk, and sometimes they pay for it.

 

[Aeberbach]

@Sardine, I think if Amibay was to get involved in transactions in any way other than ensuring buyers and sellers follow the order and verification system already in place it would be big trouble for Amibay. Not just inconvenience but could open the site and whoever is ultimately responsible to legal liability. That would lead to disclaimers and agreements for all users. You would definitely want to get legal advice if proceeding.

I see nothing wrong with saying that a 40-year-old thing is working fine as you see in these screenshots and/or video, if you want to drive here and see it all working and pick it up you can, but if it gets shipped to you - even with the most careful packaging in the world - it may arrive broken. Also noting that nobody wants to pay big money for the kind of custom injection padding that say, $50,000 lab equipment might require, but even with that there is always a risk, from changing humidity, impact, the UPS lunchtime football game, or whatever else happens along the way.

That's just the nature of fragile, vintage electronics. Anyone expecting a sure thing should stick to shopping where a replacement can be had fresh out of a factory.

Personally I would always take a thing back if it arrived broken and I'd try to claim from the carrier (good luck ) but that's a personal choice. If it wasn't a personal choice I might not agree with the decision of the umpire and what to do then?

 

[Sardine]

A lot of good points and im extremely happy that the majority if not all of you would accept returns especially for doa items

Im not targeting any individual. Its just the norm now to see on “some” sale threads with expensive items a caveat get out clause in the sale with excuses of age if it arrives dead and just suck it up and take the loss.


If Amibay did get involved ( and reading the responses it looks like we don’t need too ) i would suggest some sort of DOA promise from a seller for atleast the 1st plugin. I totally understand ( and happened to me ) worked perfectly fine at the sellers house but i didn’t realise after 1 hour of gaming locks up or crashes.

Things are old like me but i think if you advertise tested working it should arrive working. No free get our of jail cards just because its aged.

 

[Boing-ball]

Then technically if the onus is on the seller and we have to educate new buyers. Are we then saying everything that’s vintage should be being sold as Spares or repairs? Just incase? I don’t have a crystal ball
Looking at it, if it were a Trusted member on here I am selling to, then yes I would be happy to accept an item back if it arrived DOA.
The only issue then is, who pays for the return shipping and the Taxes if it were sent back?
Remember a lot of us are Private sellers.
Personally I am only selling my items as I do need the monies. So unlike a Business where there would be a fallback in funds. This may not be good going forward and could set a president.

 

[damiraga]

I do not sell often, but in the past I did sell some high value items (CyberStormPPC) and luckily everything was OK. Only once, the item I sold did not work (it was temperamental anyway) and I took it back and have refunded the purchase price. Being a part of this community for a long time, this is an ethical thing to do.

The problem I see here, apart from most items being 30+ years old, is that a lot of them require installation, so someone needs to bear the risk of possible installation error by an inexperienced buyer (i.e. plugging clockport cable the other way around usually kills the devices). Personally, I would not be willing to accept this risk once the item leaves my hands.

Also, I think any of the increased protection measures would only affect long time users who are honest and reasonable people anyway. Those one time sellers usually disappear as soon as they sell the item, and the biggest risk is usually with them as they are not part of the community, and they usually lack the experience to thoroughly test the items they sell. In addition, it would inflate the prices to even higher levels. In my opinion buying a PS/2 mouse adapter for 12 EUR and then paying 13 EUR for tracked and insured shipping to satisfy the rules does not make sense.

Personally, I am perfectly happy with the level of protection and measures we have at the moment. Yes, issues do happen from time to time, but I do not see the pattern large enough to warrant rule changes. I no longer use the other "bay" for selling as the seller almost has no protection whatsoever. Just my two cents

 

[aaronkatrini]

If the item was sold as working it should arrive as working. The buyer needs to check it on arrival and confirm.

If the item arrives damaged then its sellers responsibility (better packaging was needed).

If the buyer tinkers with the item cannot send it back.

If the item is not working properly anymore because of aging components (capacitors) then it cannot be claimed as faulty.

I believe these are common sense seen applied many times on this forum, but for clarity could be added to the rules.