No warranty. No returns

[Dannyboy]

No solutions, just a few thoughts

I think (hope) most people buying and selling here, view the forum as being a community of fellow enthusiasts, rather than just another trading platform, and so in regards to that treat their affairs as if they are buying from or selling something to a friend and fellow hobbyist, rather than just a random stranger. This is essential for a place like this to thrive, as you have to place a certain amount of faith every time you deal with somebody, as there aren't the same mechanisms in place for when things go wrong, even though there are rules to abide by and a staff that respond to transgressions.

I can see that the semantics of stating "No warranty, no returns" seem rather out of place for a community like this, even though the underlying reason for stating it just might be to remind people that "we're talking about 40 year old electronics here, which could potentially break down at any given time", but the expression comes out wrong, and throttles the idea that, should any problem arise within a transaction, you'd still be able to come to an agreement and resolve the situation, without leaving either party "high and dry".

That said, my impression is that people here, especially established ones, go out of their way to test their items, if possible, and affirm that an item sold is working/nonworking and described according to condition, with pictures/videos that document this. But there's always a risk involved. Question is, what more can be demanded of sellers, and what would we forego as a community if we were to implement further measures to secure transactions in general?

I've only ever had one transaction turn out unfortunate, with the buyer of said item ending up with a parcel, that looked like a bullet had gone through it. I issued a refund and took matters up with the carrier. I trust that things I purchase from people here are as described, and as others have stated, that buyers and sellers will be able to work something out, should any issue arise - regardless of item value.

 

[Boing-ball]

If the buyer tinkers with the item cannot send it back.

Great idea. But you are then trusting the buyer. I personally would like to think that you can trust them. But, you never know.
One thing I am seeing a lot of. The buyer will always going to be in the right…. Now which other bay does this and has alienated their sellers Just saying…..

 

[damiraga]

How do we define tinkering and where do we draw the line? As I mentioned before, many items sold here require hardware and software installation. Buyers' host systems may have not been recapped, were subject to repairs over their lifetime, or use custom power supplies. This does not even count Workbench, AmigaDOS or kickstart variants and customizations. We no longer have common base either on hardware level, nor on software. Something that works in my system, not necessarily works in someone elses.

 

[Watson]

How do we define tinkering

I would define tinkering as follows. Upgrading the items bios / firmware etc and if it fails, the buyer is fully responsible. Upgrading component's, for e.g. recapping, the buyer is responsible. The item arrived DAO but, the buyer tries to fix it, again the buyer is responsible. Did I miss anything?

 

[Aeberbach]

Did I miss anything?

Taking a working system and attempting to reinstall but failing perhaps.

 

[miggymad]

Would a "working system" also include the lack of an OS? Since you can't sell a system on here without one, unless original media is included.

 

[comraider]

If an item is so fragile / temperamental that it may not fully survive shipping, then I would suggest the seller of such an item to make it pickup/collection only. (CRTs come to mind for this).

Would a "working system" also include the lack of an OS? Since you can't sell a system on here without one, unless original media is included.

No, I don't think an OS is required to say it's "working". If the seller can show that you can boot a system off of a floppy and the keyboard/mouse/etc work, then that's probably good enough to call it "working" since it's not going to be DOA. Of course there might be exceptions to this, like a faulty hard disk controller or something, but this is just a general example.

 

[miggymad]

You're also going to need exclusions for things like removable media (CF/SD/HD) ...

"it was working fine before I formatted it ... I swear"

 

[comraider]

Yeah, we can't anticipate every scenario and the presence of a well-meaning community is essential here. And we have that in the vast, vast majority of transactions that go smoothly. If there's a dispute that can't be settled in good faith then that's where staff can step in to help.

Just speaking personally (not as a staff member): I prefer not having so many legal style rules that make it seem like a court of law lol. It's important to have a firm set of rules and principles that we stick to, and we rely on everyone acting in good faith in spirit of those rules that make us a community. Sometimes you do end up with crappy situations where no one is at fault and things go wrong, but even then folks almost always do the right thing. Staff is always there to step in when they don't.

If I sold something that was DOA for the buyer, and if it really did become non-functional in the post or whatever, I would offer to take it back for a refund (or work with insurance for reimbursement). I would hope that most sellers would do that.

 

[miggymad]

@comraider

Said that back in post #2 ... Oh well

 

[comraider]

@comraider

Said that back in post #2 ... Oh well

Haha, yeah I was editing my previous post to add that in and you beat me to it

 

[Sardine]

It's not complicated... sold working,,, arrives working.. It's a very small and common sense expectation when you spend thousands of £ / $ / €

we are not talking pocket change and to some members a considerable purchase having saved up for quite some time.

hence the "no warranty, no returns" just isn't fair on relatively very expensive items.

you can argue OS , caps , whatever but if its advertised on a Monday, arrives by Friday DEAD, that's different and I feel should have a DOA guarantee of some sort that trumps the argument of "it old sorry you took the risk i said no warranty and No returns in my ad so I'm covered legally, have a nice day "

I'm not talking warranty here just a 1st power on as advertised, that's all. I'm pretty sure most of us if not all would agree ?


I cant sell a car that's advertised, drives and runs fine, but when collected breaks down within a couple of miles ?? no recourse, just tuff luck get a tow truck, it was an old car anyway ??



It seems 95% here would accept the return ( Bloody Fantastic ) , there is just the last 5% that seem to be arguing still that "its old" , "needs recapping" , " your using wrong" , " the OS you have is different" , "you must have messed with it" after the buyer has owned it for less than 2 days saying it just doesn't work and has tried everything. No response from the seller.


at the end of the day, a pattern will evolve to show if and which members are using and implementing the get out of jail card

Due to age:-

NO warranty,
NO returns,
Buyer beware,
NO support,
you accept this "RISK" when buying,
even though I've said MANY times in my ad that it's,
fully tested.
100% working ,
no damages ,
etc ,
etc

 

[comraider]

I'm not talking warranty here just a 1st power on as advertised, that's all. I pretty sure most of us if not all would agree ?

100%. If it's sold as working and you show photos that claim it's working, it should not be DOA. Just my 2 cents.

 

[YouKnowWho]

When I see something being sold as no warranty, no returns, etc., I immediately erase it from my sight. I’ve said before that some people like the risk, and sometimes they pay for it.

I on the other hand, enjoy these things. Either because I may fix it or get a part I need or I may get a pleasant surprise and see the thing work with a simple fix. When I buy these, I already think of the item as non-working up-front. That way I never have disappointment and anything positive is always a pleasant surprise. I don't gamble, but I guess retro purchases are sort of my gambling.

The way I look it at is simply this: Is it a reasonable expectation for me to expect the individual selling it to me to be responsible for extending to me (for example) Commodore warranty? It just isn't. They're not Commodore, and they're not Best Buy.

My code for buying vintage stuff is simple: CASH & CARRY. I only buy what I'm comfortable with, and my expectation is always remembering that I'm buying something that is about 30 to 40 years old.

You on the other hand have standards. When I asked you about a Spitfire500, you wouldn't sell it because of a concern on your side. That kind of stuff I remember and as a result I'd likely buy anything from you without a concern ever going forward. Don't get me wrong, my expectations would not change, but my expectation of satisfaction with my purchase from you certainly would be higher because of the standard you hold yourself to in my experience with you. Either way, I basically don't let myself be disappointed with retro purchases. You win some, and sometimes you win little less.

 

[Boing-ball]

It's not complicated... sold working,,, arrives working.. It's a very small and common sense expectation when you spend thousands of £ / $ / €

we are not talking pocket change and to some members a considerable purchase having saved up for quite some time.

hence the "no warranty, no returns" just isn't fair on relatively very expensive items.

you can argue OS , caps , whatever but if its advertised on a Monday, arrives by Friday DEAD, that's different and I feel should have a DOA guarantee of some sort that trumps the argument of "it old sorry you took the risk i said no warranty and No returns in my ad some I'm covered legally, have a nice day "

I'm not talking warranty here just a 1st power on as advertised, that's all. I pretty sure most of us if not all would agree ?


I cant sell a car that's advertised drives and runs fine when collected wont start or breaks down with a couple of miles ?? no recourse just tuff luck get a tow truck ??



It seems 95% here would accept the return ( Bloody Fantastic ) , there is just the last 5% that seem to be arguing still that "its old" , "needs recapping" , " your using wrong" , " the OS you have is different" , "you must have messed with it" after the buyer has owned it for less than 2 days saying it just doesn't work and has tried everything. No response from the seller.


at the end of the day, a pattern will evolve to show if and which members are using and implementing the get out of jail card

Due to age:-

NO warranty,
NO returns,
Buyer beware,
NO support,
you accept this "RISK" when buying,
even though I've said MANY times in my ad that it's,
fully tested.
100% working ,
no damages ,
etc ,
etc

So let me get this right…….

There is an expectation that we all have to give time to give Free Support? Even though some of us work 8 hours a day?
So we are all assuming that the person we sell too are complete newbies? Have no way of using a computer? Or again am I missing something here?
So basically the term “Private Seller” cannot be used on here?

I get it, if I buy something and it arrives DOA. Then yes I would be…… Not Happy. Thus I would contact the seller.
If a buyer is having issues, then yes I would try and help.
The way I am reading this, is if you don’t give help. Then you get penalised?

 

[Boing-ball]

100%. If it's sold as working and you show photos that claim it's working, it should not be DOA. Just my 2 cents.

That’s acceptable.
So can we use the words “You should know how to use an Amiga…PC…Etc?”.

 

[Sardine]

you read it wrong.

 

[comraider]

That’s acceptable.
So can we use the words “You should know how to use an Amiga…PC…Etc?”.

We're just talking about DOA here, not whether or not they know how to use Workbench or whatever.

 

[Sardine]

I on the other hand, enjoy these things. Either because I may fix it or get a part I need or I may get a pleasant surprise and see the thing work with a simple fix. When I buy these, I already think of the item as non-working up-front. That way I never have disappointment and anything positive is always a pleasant surprise. I don't gamble, but I guess retro purchases are sort of my gambling.

The way I look it at is simply this: Is it a reasonable expectation for me to expect the individual selling it to me to be responsible for extending to me (for example) Commodore warranty? It just isn't. They're not Commodore, and they're not Best Buy.

My code for buying vintage stuff is simple: CASH & CARRY. I only buy what I'm comfortable with, and my expectation is always remembering that I'm buying something that is about 30 to 40 years old.

You on the other hand have standards. When I asked you about a Spitfire500, you wouldn't sell it because of a concern on your side. That kind of stuff I remember and as a result I'd likely buy anything from you without a concern ever going forward. Don't get me wrong, my expectations would not change, but my expectation of satisfaction with my purchase from you certainly would be higher because of the standard you hold yourself to in my experience with you. Either way, I basically don't let myself be disappointed with retro purchases. You win some, and sometimes you win little less.

on an item that costs thousands ?? you must be rich or.........an extreme risk taker,

some members ( me included ) single income, average wage ( i think below ) , family of 5 ( 9 if dogs included ), we would have to sit down and have a serious talk ( like buying a car ) to spend thousands on a 40yr old computer that could break and be worthless at any moment, EVEN, get this,,,,, AT THE POINT OF DELIVERY... wow!!

 

[Boing-ball]

on an item that costs thousands ?? you must be rich or.........an extreme risk taker,

some members ( me included ) single income, average wage ( i think below ) , family of 5 ( 9 if dogs included ), we would have to sit down and have a serious talk ( like buying a car ) to spend thousands on a 40yr old computer that could break and be worthless at any moment, EVEN, get this,,,,, AT THE POINT OF DELIVERY... wow!!

Just to add. I’m no Millionaire and have mentioned this before. Only reason for selling any of my Amigas and why I put statements like “No Warranty”, “No Refunds” etc.
as 1).. To be Translucent in What you are buying and what I am selling.
2).. To try and put off anyone who wishes to try it on
3).. As already mentioned I only sell items as I may need to monies and not a Business.

What I do not condone is the phrase “Get out of Jail”. I have seen other members use these “No Warranty” etc. in their Sales threads.
Also a mention on another thread where a seller ended up giving a partial refund and mentioned they should have used these to define the sale.

But I do understand if an item does arrive D.O.A then the right thing is done.
As for No Support. This I do have to put on my Sales threads, as again time! Expectation from the buyer that I jump to it with an answer. If I have time, then yes I would do my best. But how far do you go?