selling items with "NO GUARANTEE" arriving working

[Sardine]

I understand the age of some items,

I understand your trying to cover your "behind" if the item arrives and doesn't work.

I understand you might have already sold the computer and you're unable to "test" the item / accelerator / graphics card etc ?

but...

I think your listing should state the same as "eBay" sold as "spares repair" and priced as such

If you expect the "buyer" to take "ALL" the risk I dont think this is fair.

if you want to sell as "used" but "untested" there "MUST" be some expectation that the item arrives in a working condition and if not is eligible for return/refund.

I don't think it's fair to list an item for £1000 / $1000 / € 1000 and if arrives not working you just simply wash your hands of the sale.


I have put this to the admin to discuss and invite your thoughts.

 

[fitzsteve]

For some items like shipping a CRT that carriers won't insure and have a high chance of not surviving delivery it makes sense but otherwise I agree people shouldn't be selling items and saying it's old no comeback/sold as seen (should really be listed as spare parts in that case.)

However that said most people are reasonable, I don't think most Amibayers would wash their hands of a sale.

There does need to be some consideration that it is old hardware and if handled incorrectly it can easily get damaged perhaps this is more these seller's concerns?

 

[miggymad]

All my Amiga items for sale are tested before-hand. If it doesn't work, it doesn't get listed.

Also said items are very well packed as once it leaves my hands I cannot control who gets to handle the box and how they treat it on it's journey.

 

[Buzzfuzz]

For me it's simple, if it's untested or broken, it must be stated their and reflecting the price.
You can't just say this chip and that connector are worth it, they have to be desolderd from the board.

If it's a working item, then show it all!
No hiding battery damage on boards like the A2000/3000D/T and 4000D , show hi resolution, clear photos.
Show it's actually working with Amiga Testkit or something and Sysinfo, WhichAmiga or whatever proves it.

As a seller I work with a refund if your not satisfied with what you are buying, I'll refund it all the way when it's send back in the same condition.
As a buyer, I expect the same thing.

So yeah, their is a point to this.
A buyer is allowed to have some guarantees when he's buying something.
The seller needs to be aware if you post this, that it's transported in a box that is 'Ace Ventura' proof when in transit and that the buyer is capable installing the item in the correct way.
If the buyer used excessive force for instance, then this is not the sellers problem.

Yeah it's old, it can break, it can stop to work the next day, but these are not valid reasons to lift your hands off something that is advertised working.
I think we should all bear this in mind.

Photos show a ZorroII/III card being posted to Germany, card in proper antistatic bag and then in an Ikea Samla box, boxed again and warning labels all over taped around, even the bottom is taped

 

[miggymad]

@Sardine

If you want something like as you describe in your opening post then people will probably also begin to use that other well used Ebay statement of "Returns not accepted" for their untested or even shown working items.

The seller is still protected and there will be no comeback for them other than perhaps negative or neutral feedback.

That still doesn't help the buyer any so where does the forum go from here?

 

[ratfink]

If it's plainly stated that you offer no guarantee, then buyer beware - especially if you don't have reason to trust the seller (due to prevous dealings or observable abundant feedback). That may not be conducive to the convivial atmosphere you want on amibay, but it is kinda common sense.

 

[miggymad]

@ratfink

100% in agreement with you.

Untested = no warranty or guarantee.

Caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.

 

[Xanxi]

Careful, as Amibay always had a no price driving rule, we can't comment on prices and this thread is closing the line.
This rule has been so much engraved in my brain, that i am almost in guru meditation by reading here.

That said, i have only two comments:
- a reasonnable man won't spend all his money on a 35+ years old part, except if it comes as working from the hands of a qualified peer who made sure it works
- getting to know someone as qualified as Hese made me confident that almost anything could be fixed, or is worth trying.

 

[Boing-ball]

As someone who has/will sell and buy items. It should be noted that as long as a listing is accurate with all details of an item(s), plus all pictures. Then it is with the buyer to make sure they are buying what is being described.

Don’t forget there will be those on here who may or may not have Amiga experience/ a PHD in Computer Science. But for those who know about recapping and only describe a system as working…. Wellll! Yeah, there maybe something that should have been mentioned in a listing.

I sort of disagree with the term, “If it ain’t tested”, then It should at least be working. Not everyone may have the equipment to test an item they have. For example FastATA adapter for a A1200. Seller doesn’t have a A1200 to test with, etc..

All I would say for these items, then they should be priced as such. Not at at a price of a tested and known working item. As being said, this isn’t EBay. Besides there is no Sellers Fees on here like there

 

[Buzzfuzz]

I sort of disagree with the term, “If it ain’t tested”, then It should at least be working. Not everyone may have the equipment to test an item they have. For example FastATA adapter for a A1200. Seller doesn’t have a A1200 to test with, etc..

Well I think that could be done by someone else, there are always people here willing to that if they live close to you.
Here in the Netherlands, we have our 2 month club day, and that is also an option to have someone test your hardware, there are enough people here to help and skilled repairers.

In the days I had every Amiga possible, I did test things also and if I didn't get it to work, roadtrip to @AmigaDigital and then sometimes it was an easy fix, to get something working.

 

[Boing-ball]

Well I think that could be done by someone else, there are always people here willing to that if they live close to you.
Here in the Netherlands, we have our 2 month club day, and that is also an option to have someone test your hardware, there are enough people here to help and skilled repairers.

In the days I had every Amiga possible, I did test things also and if I didn't get it to work, roadtrip to @AmigaDigital and then sometimes it was an easy fix, to get something working.

Yeah… I don’t see people doing that. For me personally, I don’t know anyone near me. I don’t attend clubs. Plus you are then spending monies and time to do this. I don’t really have either of these.

 

[arnljot]

Careful, as Amibay always had a no price driving rule, we can't comment on prices and this thread is closing the line.

If you look closer, this thread is opened by a staff moderator who also states:

I have put this to the admin to discuss and invite your thoughts.

So on to the discussion.

I think a lot of good points in the thread has been made. But I've also noticed some listings asking high prices for what's in reality is being sold for parts. But to Xanxi point, I will not name any to affect their listings.

Bit it comes down to shipping also, and expectation management. If you're listing something for pro-refurb prices and saying "untested" "no returns accepted", then I personally won't buy from that seller.

I buy from reputable members of this site or members who show that they understand how to package and care for aging retro equipment.

I would love to see "all your risk" sellers go away, but drawing the line is hard. The site would then effectively have to create a market value list for items and approve listings and conditions from that? Or am I missing something here Sardine?

 

[ratfink]

There's also the extent of testing. How much functionality does one test, eg a motherboard boots, but do you test each slot or interface works, etc. And a lot of buyers (and sellers) of retro stuff didn't have it back in the day, and won't be aware of the baked-in shortcomings, glitches and sample variability. Even worse with "unopened/sealed" - what if it doesn't work - in the end I came to the conclusion that as a seller you really have to open the box and test it... but I daresay there are buyers who would prefer to roll those dice...

I suppose you do reasonable tests and then accept returns if some basic functionality you didn't test doesn't work right. I'm thinking of listings that say "tested to boot" for example - who bears the risk there etc.

 

[Buzzfuzz]

If you look closer, this thread is opened by a staff moderator who also states:

So on to the discussion.

I think a lot of good points in the thread has been made. But I've also noticed some listings asking high prices for what's in reality is being sold for parts. But to Xanxi point, I will not name any to affect their listings.

Yeah that is the point!
We are not supposed to discuss it, yet we see it all over the board in the form of emojies and sometimes even actual comments.
Those will get snipped, but we all talk about it in other forums or Discord.

Personally, if I look at 2010 and now, you'll get why I am not even in the mood to buy something.
I look at the new stuff, like PiStorm, BFG9060, Warp 4060, TF1260, 1230 and so on.
And I see remakes of the cases now starting to to take shape and new motherboards being produced, so in that perspective, why would I even mess with an orignal 3000D/T or 4000D/T (which I have done already)?
I've made my choice here.

Like @ratfink says, you want roll the dice ?
Go ahead, but not me!

You see the thing is, we are going to be spending time and money to correct all flaws with whatever you buy, from a dead Cyberstorm PPC to an Amiga 4000D that has suffered major fallout in the battery area.
Such repairs are expensive in every way and take a lot of time for people like @stachu100 or @tbtorro to fix.
I'm sure they have a few horror stories to tell here or even things that are beyond repair.

Most of us here are Amibayers here, so we know how it works and what needs to be done.
Then I think we should act on that and make it more clear in the rules, what can be expected from buyers and sellers if an item isn't working or not tested.
I think it also needs a separate forum for selling these things.

So every platform has it's untested or not working selling forum, that would give new members clearly the idea that this is not working or could be not working.

 

[Sardine]

Some good comments

I’m not talking about a particular price but I’m trying to compare an item tested and guaranteed to arrive working vs sold as is and they are both priced around the same price. If you miss the few words ( no guarantee) in the paragraphs of text and photos i think that’s kinda unfair.

This discussion is because of the recent trend of :-

“it worked when i last used it 10 years ago and i don’t see why it SHOULDN’T work but I'm selling it at the same price as other sellers tested working items with detailed photo’s but without the guarantee it even works and if it doesn’t work then tuff luck because i said sold as is no guarantee no returns”

I know there is some acceptable risk on old hardware but if it’s sold as is then i personally think should have its own prefix instead of “for sale” maybe “spares/repair”

If you’ve been looking for that “unicorn” and find one that’s listed as “should “ work then i think some ( not many ) sale thread’s are predatory in the wording enticing you in with a false promise until the dead circuit arrives.

I know a bit over the top but when i read a sale thread that kinda paints a rainbow but with a “sold as is no guarantee” right at the end.

 

[darefail]

Are we talking about prices here? Or the condition of an item?

 

[Sardine]

Are we talking about prices here? Or the condition of an item?

Neither read it again

 

[darefail]

I’m not talking about a particular price but I’m trying to compare an item tested and guaranteed to arrive working vs sold as is and they are both priced around the same price. If you miss the few words ( no guarantee) in the paragraphs of text and photos i think that’s kinda unfair.

Maybe I do not understand correct but what I understand here is you are talking about the description of the condition compared to its price.
So you are talking about both.
Correct me please.

 

[Sardine]

Nope

I’m talking about listing items at market value whatever that is today but with the statement “not used in x years should work no guarantees so sold as is no refunds “

Should in my opinion be listed as “spares/repair” so it’s more visible to a buyer the item could be defective and a risk when buying.

 

[darefail]

In my opinion the buyer takes the whole responsibility, as long as nothing is hidden in the description.
In this case, when an item has not been tested yesterday, the buyer takes his risk.
There is also a chance that may be DOA even if tested yesterday. In this case the seller must take it back.
This is Amibay and I suppose/hope we are all honest.