The Commodore brand may be coming back!

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your reasoning is flawed.. that's like comparing my PC's cheap CPU alone not accounting for all the other hardware, ram , motherboard , vga , sound , connectivity,.,,, the list goes on

when / if you buy the New C64 Ultimate your not just buying an FPGA chip alone that's just ridiculous, now what, you going to compare the above fpga cost wise to a 6502 cpu without anything else accounted for ??
Yes @Sardine, it certainly is not the only line in the BOM, but in my view it is important to point out because it shows capability, the key component cost and the fact that it is not as broadly supported as MISTer. Between a real genuine orginal Commodore 64 from the 80s or a MISTer FPGA with all it can do, I personally just don't see a place for this "New C64" FPGA thing. However, as you correctly point out, that's strictly my personal opinion. Everyone votes with their wallet, and our votes are all in.
 
its a Genuine official Commodore C64
I'm going to disagree, if you don't mind. There is nothing genuine about this new C64 in my view. It's all immitation.

You noted "Torches. Scooters. God forbid a phone. Or whatever any money grabbing idiot could dream up" that would be made if Commodore brand was PD.

This FPGA chip case, all of it, is a nostalgia branding exercise. All likely Made in China, right?

Wasn't the real C64 Made in USA? ...for starters.

New C64 is just that...it's a whole new thing. It's not real. It's not original. It's not genuine. It's just a low cost FPGA in a imitation look-a-like case with the brand slapped on it. Anyhow...I will withdraw at ths point if you don't mind. Not much more to add.
You cannot replace an experience of nostalgia with Logic Units or cells. I get more from a good case and keyboard than the size of my SD card,
Agreed fully! And nothing serves that nostalgic experience like a real C64s in real cases with real keyboards made by real Commodore and 100% genuine original and pure, available at much lower prices than the New C64, due to the huge success and sales of the machine.
 
Forgive if I misunderstood. Real original nice Commodore 64s are quite affordable out there, are they not? I just checked and C64+1702+1541 sets are plentiful around here

You need to take into account:

- Some way to put downloaded files in there, also you might want some REU implementation.

You can take Ultimate-II+L cart. Isn't it adding about 150 to the cost? E.g. half of the cheapest commodore.net model.

Otherwise you can try to get some floppies for 1541 on ebay or here, but don't think it would be cheaper.

- Some upscaling solution.

Even if you have one already, it might not serve you well. I had OSSC, which doesn't do s-video or composite out of the box.
I got a VicIIdizer128 as LumaCode seemed the best+easiest way forward. Even after all that, my monitor doesn't seem to accept
OSSC 5x signal properly after LumaCode and as consequence I don't have proper aspect ratio.

Oh, and surely I had to remove RF shield (in order to have space for VICIIdizer128 and 4kb VDC upgrade) and decided to put in heatsinks.

The expenses do add up.
 
ME, I have all the above, too scared to use it in case it goes pop, or even a decent display to use it on and that doesn't go pop
Some slight philosophical side note.

Is there any perceivable difference in how the computer affects your world (or anyone else's) between not turning it on because it is broken and not turning it on because you are afraid it will become broken?

Cars need to be driven, computers need to be turned on and enjoyed.
 
Some slight philosophical side note.

Is there any perceivable difference in how the computer affects your world (or anyone else's) between not turning it on because it is broken and not turning it on because you are afraid it will become broken?

Cars need to be driven, computers need to be turned on and enjoyed.
Im an Old dog mid 50’s. Busy family. Small house. Single income so not money rich by any means apart from my wonderful family.

To plug in my old original c64 ( any of them really ). I goto drag out from the loft. The c64. All the cables including all the psu’s. A compatible display. Tape or disk drive or stick with my ultimate cart. Taking over the kitchen table until I’m kicked off for food times.

Or use my c64 maxi. Phone adapter and hdmi cable.

Even my mister can be a bit of a spaghetti mess

At the time of putting my c64 away it all worked. Even read all the disk compendium’s i made. So i want to relax and have fun not disaster if/when i get a black screen or my disk drive led just stays lit. I know it’s like me putting my head in the sand like an ostrich 😀

So the new c64 looks interesting if i can afford to get one but looking at the costs and how accurate fpga is these days should i sell up to pay for one? Worry gone. And for me personally an authentic c64 experience no matter wants inside the case.
 
The expenses do add up.
Yes, but if you're living

Cars need to be driven, computers need to be turned on and enjoyed.
100%. If your original hardware is not bringing you enjoyment, what's the point? Agreed fully @dwaco
Even my mister can be a bit of a spaghetti mess
USB keyboard and mouse add that much spaghetti? I did put mine inside a 1200 case as noted with the 8bits4ever MISTress1200 board, so that cleaned up that big problem. You can put a MISTer inside a C64 case surely. I was thinking about it, but after the 1200 was done found the idea redundant for my needs.

Look, I've made assumptions due to the audience here: surely if you're here you most likely have the original hardware for 100% pure experience. And likely you've perhaps sourced some quality-of-life improvements to it. Objecting to the requirements and limitations of original hardware, while maybe a peeve is somewhat strange, don't you think? Cables, video...these are part of the original experience and reality. Resenting it is somewhat...well, as I said, strange. So if you have the original hardware, as most of us do, need for a New C64 is not that great. In my view this need should certainly not come before MISTer, because even if you use the MISTer with external USB keyboard and mouse, MISTer replaces so much retro hardware, the value proposition of MISTer simply overwhelms any other retro hardware offer, expecially one based around AMD FPGA or ARM cpu/software.

Hence, as I've noted, in my view, MISTer should be the first non-original hardware FPGA kit anyone in retro buys and owns. MISTer offers too much to overlook, regardless of niche limitations. Which then leaves a challenging narrow gap for anything else to fit into. Of course the C64 is a very special machine to many, so catering to the nostalgia of the machine appearance is an obvious strategy. Many have taken the design and put a PC into it or AMR/software, or an AMD FPGA. All of these efforts wrap the skin we know and love around hardware that in my view is not exceptional.

New C64 really bothers me too, because they took the Ultimate64 board, which did exist in a version with a Cyclone V MISTer FPGA and all those amazing features. But this new Commodore opted against the 110,000 logic cell Cyclone V FPGA in favour of the AMD XC7A50T with 52,160 logic cells to limit the product in terms of capability and core options users could load in. That type of decision really pisses me off as a consumer. It's wasteful for starters, because I fully expect that on their product roadmap they will make a better product eventually and come after more money from the retro community.

I'd much rather get a Keyrah and squeeze a MISTer Cyclone V FPGA into an original C64 case now. Actual real C= original 64 case and 100% original keyboard and every retro hardware accurately reproduced under that keyboard with a MISTer FPGA and the capability of the 110,000 logic cell chip that has incredible retro support and cores. Or maybe that Ultimate64 Elite board can be bought with a Cyclone V FPGA still?
 
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Agree to disagree why does a commodore 64 have to be anything else but a commodore 64, why is it necessary to try an Amiga on it or anything else ??

I won’t be trying an amiga / SNES / spectrum / psx etc etc. on it

it has one job, C64, if you want more then buy something or use something else

I have most of the mini consoles, nes / snes / psx / amiga / TurboGrafx etc, I know they probably all can be hacked to play everything but why ??
 
@Sardine. Understood. But by that logic I feel what should be under the skin is that original 64, "ReC64" or that "Reloaded C64" if you will, not an FPGA chip board.

FPGA by default offers us incredible chameleon-like hardware capability. And since this C64 comes with the AMD Artix A7 (like the Sinclair ZX Spectrum Next Issue 3, which will do C64 core by the way) clearly there are already a handful of core options for it. And while I totally get your point, I feel that value is clearly there in having something than not having something. Look at that AMD Artix A7 based ZX Spectrum Next highlight now that it can do C64 core. You don't want it? Fine. But it's there if you do. You may not want anything but a C64, but I'm betting everyone would unlock the potential of the FPGA technology and load a different core in, if that was an option. Therefore, in my view:

FPGA with many core options > FPGA without more core options.

As to why? Well, I'm guessing that many of us are tired of buying yet another box that can only do one thing when there is one box that can do many things, and as far as hardware capability is concerned, do it better - certainly where it counts in reproducing the custom chips, accuracy, eliminating controller latency, simplicity of device, quality of life.

I mean...talk about eliminating a spaghetti you mentioned before. You plug in one MISTer DE10 Nano device, and you can donate all those ARM cpu minis to...well, someone who will want them. After the novelty wears off, the hardware is not so much joy.
 
New C64 really bothers me too, because they took the Ultimate64 board, which did exist in a version with a Cyclone V MISTer FPGA and all those amazing features. But this new Commodore opted against the 110,000 logic cell Cyclone V FPGA in favour of the AMD XC7A50T with 52,160 logic cells to limit the product in terms of capability and core options users could load in. That type of decision really pisses me off as a consumer. It's wasteful for starters, because I fully expect that on their product roadmap they will make a better product eventually and come after more money from the retro community.

Is MiSTer a better multi-purpose FPGA machine with different cores and anything? Yes it is. No doubt about it.

Is new C64 Ultimate a better C64 than MiSTer? Yes it is.

Should new Commodore new product try to compete with MiSTer for being a better multi-purpose FPGA machine? I don't think so. If you want many cores then go ahead, get a MiSTer.

Should new C64 have a more powerful FPGA? Not sure what for exactly. Sockets for two real SIDs are more interesting to me than 2x size FPGA.

New C64 is IMHO a very nice development. Fpga here is means to achieve it. Nothing less, nothing more.

There is nothing genuine about this new C64 in my view. It's all immitation.

Hence, as I've noted, in my view, MISTer should be the first non-original hardware FPGA kit anyone in retro buys and owns.
Is there some difference in your mind between 'Genuine Commodore C64' and 'Original Commodore C64'?

How would 'Genuine 2025 Commodore C64' look for you? What are the checkboxes that need to be ticked?
 
@dwaco - The obvious solution (to me) is a host/hub board for original C64 cases/keyboards, along the lines of MISTress1200/600/500 boards, where you could drop this C64 fit board in, put a MISTer DE10 Nano on it, and rock like an FPGA king. I'm surprised it's not a thing yet actually for teh C64.

Agreed that words are open to interpretation, and increasingly are twisted by clever marketing. Words like original and genuine have long lost their meaning in this world of another nostalgia exercise in that magic confusing space between real true actual original genuine hardware :-) and software emulation.

I recently got a can of flavoured water and it said "natural flavour" on it, which fascinated me. So I looked into the legal permitted definition of "natural flavour" on food products, and it is certainly not what we think it is.

Natural Flavour is what these new nostalgia products deliver. "...a faithful recreation of the original motherboard on FPGA hardware..."

Faithful. :-)
 
Should new C64 have a more powerful FPGA? Not sure what for exactly. Sockets for two real SIDs are more interesting to me than 2x size FPGA.

New C64 is IMHO a very nice development. Fpga here is means to achieve it. Nothing less, nothing more.

How would 'Genuine 2025 Commodore C64' look for you? What are the checkboxes that need to be ticked?
Answers to these questions:
FPGA with more power allows reproduction of more chips in hardware, or of more complicated chips as we know.
FPGA can achieve quite a bit, as MISTer illustrates. Hence, bigger FPGA can achieve more, and is certainly better as a result.

Interseting that you would want real SIDs and not SIDs in FPGA....are you listening to Politik by Coldplay in the background? You know...Give me real, don't give me fake? :-)

Genuine 2025 Commodore C64 to me would be a brand new reproduction of the computer chips and the computer we know - inside out. I would apply the word "Genuine" to the C64 and not to the "Commodore" brand part, which I feel is the application here as if brand should matter more than substance of what's inside. I would perhaps add a video upscaler option and some SD card option, but without touching the computer architecture.

Once it is in the fluid non-hardware-locked version of core loaded into an FPGA chip, are we really going to put a fence around it and not let it roam free like an FPGA should? Such a waste.
 
@dwaco - The obvious solution (to me) is a host/hub board for original C64 cases/keyboards, along the lines of MISTress1200/600/500 boards, where you could drop this C64 fit board in, put a MISTer DE10 Nano on it, and rock like an FPGA king. I'm surprised it's not a thing yet actually for teh C64.
Okay, so you think MISTress64 is a better thing that they could do?

Some daughterboard with ports for DE10 for those folks that still don't have some form of MiSTer? Don't think it is something interesting enough.

On the other hand, bringing out Jim and Gideon work (out of the realm of hobbyists not afraid to get inside their machines) into the world of finished product sounds great.

Interseting that you would want real SIDs and not SIDs in FPGA....are you listening to Politik by Coldplay in the background? You know...Give me real, don't give me fake?
Well, I like upgrading my stuff.

I have upgraded my Blade 1000 with the most interesting 'RTG' or, in Sun world of the time, 'frame buffer' - XVR-1000.

I have put two 1Ghz P3 CPUs and RDRAM into my XU800 (someone disassembled their Visualize X-Class PC workstation and sold parts on ebay, this is how I got a VRM for it for second CPU!).

I did put 64kb VDC upgrade into my C128.

If I eventually get 64 Ultimate-II or commodore.net C64 Ultimate what can I upgrade? That's right, SIDs.

Will try listening to Politik, but I guess will need to read lyrics as well to get your point, as English is not my native language so while I discern some words when listening to music, I rarely understand song lyrics fully.

Genuine 2025 Commodore C64 to me would be a brand new reproduction of the computer chips and the computer we know - inside out. I would apply the word "Genuine" to the C64 and not to the "Commodore" brand part, which I feel is the application here as if brand should matter more than substance of what's inside. I would perhaps add a video upscaler option and some SD card option, but without touching the computer architecture.

What about HDMI? No HDMI? And RF modulator should be there? No built-in WiFi? C64 cannot evolve and still be genuine?

Okay.

Is this the way you'd approach the Ship of Theseus paradox? If single board is changed then not that ship anymore?

Once it is in the fluid non-hardware-locked version of core loaded into an FPGA chip, are we really going to put a fence around it and not let it roam free like an FPGA should? Such a waste.

Aren't you limiting then how FPGA chips could be used by anyone? Which applications (and how they are used) are acceptable? Aren't you putting a different kind of fence around them? I thought them to be good solution to the high cost of custom chips manufacturing when you cannot have scale, not just a way to emulate entire machines with multiple cores.
 
Some daughterboard with ports for DE10 for those folks that still don't have some form of MiSTer? Don't think it is something interesting enough.
MISTer has that SNAC port and plenty of potential as we know. Media/Cartridges/Floppies/MIDI/Controllers - so much hardware being worked on or out there already. Future of retro is not immune to economics. Meaning, we need numbers. MISTer is clearly the lead in FPGA game. All that hardware can be added. Now there is a clone MISTer available, offering value.
Well, I like upgrading my stuff.
Yes. And you don't upgrade the way I upgrade, the way they upgrade. We have our preferences, and it will be on us to upgrade as we invent. But for a "new" retro product, upgradeability options have a cost. Who's willing to pay it? If it is only a few users, then the added cost hinders your product for the majority of buyers.
what can I upgrade? That's right, SIDs.
Sure. Aren't these very well replicated on the Altera FPGASID by the way? :-)
as English is not my native language
I think we're doing just fine. You're certainly doing perfectly. It was just that "Give me real, don't give me fake" bit of lyrics.
What about HDMI? No HDMI? And RF modulator should be there? No built-in WiFi? C64 cannot evolve and still be genuine?
Well, I did note video option secondary to the board as internal add-on. RF, those are plentiful even today. Wifi on a MISTer? :-)
Is this the way you'd approach the Ship of Theseus paradox? If single board is changed then not that ship anymore?
Give me the real circuit board, an actual copy - high quality. If we're going to FPGA, give me all that FPGA can do. That's my simple ask.
Aren't you limiting then how FPGA chips could be used by anyone? Which applications (and how they are used) are acceptable? Aren't you putting a different kind of fence around them?
NO! I'm not limiting at all what FPGA should do. THEY are limiting what it could do.
Look, I know we're arguing about details here, but in this case THEY chose to make the FPGA be an emulator of the entire computer. To load the entire core into an FPGA chip large enough to handle all the circuitry reproduction. So I am not limiting anything. The utilization of the FPGA here is clearly same as MISTer - whole core emulation. Sure, use FPGA as you wish, for individual custom chips or other uses. But we have a use case here that is exactly the same as MISTer, yet less capable so my comparison is quite fair, especially considering the price points. As a consumer, I demand more than this, if we're going FPGA. That's my simple ask. :-)
I thought them to be good solution to the high cost of custom chips manufacturing when you cannot have scale, not just a way to emulate entire machines with multiple cores.
Absolutely! But in the NEW C64 it emulates all of it - a full core, just like MISTer does.
 
Are we done now with the fan boy parade for other machines that are not anything to do with the thread title?

If not, would you mind starting another thread? I'll gladly get the posts moved over for you guys, so you can continue there and stop derailing this one.

That would be great, thanks.
 
Looking so much towards October/November to hopefully receive the Ultimate 64 Founders edition. Also excited about what the future brings in terms of the journey of Commodore. Would be great to have it all under one roof again and looking at possible new strains of Amiga OS'
 
"...real Commodore 64s are being made again..."

Define "real" please? :-) <snip>
 
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