What happened to this hobby?

[tokyoracer]

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say it's not all so innocent here visa-versa either. Plenty of cases I have seen people here profiteering from the reverse (buying on eBay and selling on Amibay) often with success. I personally never deliberately profit from this site, if I do it's not by alot at all.
To be honest for a while, better deals could be had on the other Bay and only really in the last number of months has it been about so-so in terms of deals. It's swings and roundabouts where you can get the best deal and sure I can understand the benefits getting stuff from enthusiats that might care but the point remains many people do ask for top money for stuff here and we all know they will be making money off it for the prices they ask for things.
It's a far cry from Amibay I remember of the turn of the last decade. :sigh:

 

[RuneRider]

In my case various individuals work as a team to low-ball the seller and apply different tactics acting together but pretending to be separate and unconnected. One contacted me offering a low price which I rejected and then called me to discuss how he used to have an A2000 but sold it when he lost his home. Now he has a little money, would like to have another and is compiling parts to build one. He was very slick and convincing but I said "no". Then others make offers and disappear, book to come see it and don't show up, offer more to make sure they get it only to retract the offer, ask me to please hold it for a few days and never contact me again or make demands such as free delivery to the next city etc. When time passes and I'm getting fed up with this all the first guy calls back offering a little more than he originally did and we have a friendly discussion about the "people" out there. This guy then calls again a few days later and asks again if I'd be willing to sell for the lower price, I say yes. Then I see my items for sale on larger sites for much more money.

The next sob story I hear will meet with a very unpleasant response. I may even have some fun myself.

- - - Updated - - -

I won't address the philosophical and political beliefs around any "making money is always good" statements. People these days enjoy being offended and I don't wish to feed that addiction.

For my part and with regards to the hobby I'll just say that the practices that many now employ when disposing of what they would normally consider "old junk" hurts the hobby and is unsustainable. Some day soon it will be impossible to collect without vast amounts of money.

I know for a fact that some people will ask ridiculous money for something they saw as useless prior to the current trend simply because it's old and when it doesn't sell will dispose of it rather than let a collector have it for the little it's actually worth.

To make things worse for collectors the recycling centers I've spoken with would rather destroy old machines they received instead of get cash for them. I used to visit these places and get things for next to nothing. Now they think I'm the kind of person I dislike and that I will sell what they give me online for stupid amounts of money.

Maybe we all need to set up a charity. Perhaps a home for elderly computer equipment that takes donations of machines and gives back a tax receipt those donating can claim. Beyond that I'm beginning to wonder if I should continue since I've never won the lottery.

 

[Arnie]

It's that philosophy that drives the prices up.

If everyone was prepared to absorb the postage then the price would still be £25. Everybody pays postage, it's not part of the price, it's a delivery charge. The next owner will have to pay postage, and the next, and so on.

So you sell everything at a loss? You've never made money on anything you've sold? I agree blatant scalping and lying to get better deals is out of line, but to claim people aren't allowed to profit or even break even on things they buy is nonsense.

In a word, Yes. I sell stuff I don't need, getting some money back is enough for me.

I used to sell all my Amiga gear here, mostly at a loss (I never recouped postage). This site should be about a community where profit shouldn't enter into it. I've even sent stuff for free (just charged for postage) but it now seems that if there's no profit here then off to e-bay it goes.

Your attitude reflects the sad state of the Amiga community.. Profit, Profit, Profit, Profit, Profit,

 

[bebek]

Honestly, all of us (Amibay) are taking huge blame for raising prices:

1. Leaving prices in sales threads after sales - next person will add x% seeing that it was sold for this price and was a lot of interest. That is normal and not a seller fault. If I sell something I want to be sure that if I change my mind I will be able to buy it back later from somebody else for similar price ...
2. Some sellers sets outrageous prices and I think there is no way that somebody will buy it. Some time later "dum dum" it is sold oh:. What happens next? See point one. We can not comment prices but sometimes it is very difficult not to.

 

[Grimakis]

Prices are set by the market. People are always strange about this. On every retro community, I see people complaining about prices being "driven up" by resellers. In reality, prices have been artificially low, due to an informationally inefficient market. As eBay gives people a source of historical prices, the market becomes more efficient. The market prices becomes closer to what the consumer values it at.

Sorry to say it, but there are a lot of people out there who collect computers. The demand is higher than when most people entered this hobby. Some people have more disposable income, their willingness to pay is higher, etc. It's a shame that some people will be driven out of the hobby because they will no longer be able to afford it.

That's how the world works. Communities like Amibay exist, trying to keep prices artificially deflated. This will only work for so long. Eventually the cost of purchasing a computer outside of Amibay will be so much higher, that people won't be able to afford to sell their stuff at a loss.

That's just my two-cents. I've never bought or sold anything here, so what do I know.

 

[ratfink]

In reality, prices have been artificially low, due to an informationally inefficient market. As eBay gives people a source of historical prices, the market becomes more efficient. The market prices becomes closer to what the consumer values it at.

Not sure it's really about information. In a small, isolated market you will still see demand and supply at work, and prices will be what people in that market are willing to buy and sell at. There will be some price stickiness, because we are creatures of habit and use the past as a guide to value.

When such an isolated market merges with a much larger population of buyers and sellers [in a sense what ebay can do] prices may shift, depending on how much buyers and sellers think of themselves as being part of that market. Prices on ebay could be higher or lower, it would still have an influence.

The market prices becomes closer to what the consumer values it at.

Well, if we are talking about market-clearing prices, then in theory [and given standard assumptions] that tends to the level at which everyone who wants the good at that price, can buy it. And everyone who wants to sell at that price can do so too. It doesn't mean anything else and it's in a way utterly arbitrary; basically there IS no intrinsic value in anything [and this kind of economics can't provide any such basis for prices].

Sorry to go on, but I am sick of the tripe spouted on these forums by free marketeers [not aimed at you at all] who get very dogmatic [if that's the right word...] about market prices being "right" in some way and that people shouldn't complain. In fact there's nothing inherently right or wrong or moral or immoral about prices, the economics is purely descriptive of what happens, and the market price is just... the market price. Almost by definition some people will want prices to be lower - and who won't pay what they consider inflated prices. And some would have wanted to sell if only prices were higher.

[do feel free to argue, I am just chewing the fat and trying to get my economics brain up and running after 35 years of dormancy...]

 

[khimru]

Not sure it's really about information.

It is. Absolutely. Except it's the other way around.

As eBay gives people a source of historical prices, the market becomes more efficient.

Really? Where? Could you show me trend for, I don't know, Blizzard 1260? There were dozen of sales in the last year at least, perhaps more, on eBay. Where are they? Sure, you could use Google and some other tricks and discover some of these, but this is really hard work. eBay is absolutely awful WRT past deals for rare items. It works adequately for abundant stuff (you could see many offers, sellers are competing and buyers could choose and pick) but for rare items (and we are dealing with rare items here) deals go from extremely low to extremely high - and of course extremely low deals happen when someone takes stuff out of their closet and wants to sell it. With no guidance s/he sets price really low... and it's quickly snatched by avid "collector" who will sell it later for 10x more.

Sorry to go on, but I am sick of the tripe spouted on these forums by free marketeers [not aimed at you at all] who get very righteous about market prices being right. There's nothing right or wrong or moral or immoral about it, the economics is purely descriptive of whast happens, and the market price is just the market price,.

Why "not aimed at you at all"? When someone looks on the big painting named WHEN MARKETS SHOULD FAIL and start explaining that markets are always right the first question to ask is: how about doing some homework?

Yes market says prices "right"… when there's perfect competition, that is. And perfect competition means two things:
1. There are no participants large enough to have the market power to set the price of a homogeneous product.
2. Participants have perfect knowledge about deals which happen on said market.

Now, compare the AmiBay (where deals happen in the open and where hoarders are punished) to eBay (where past deals are hard to find and where hoarders are thriving). Which one looks like a free market to you?

In a sense Grimakis is right: eventually AmiBay will succumb to the forces which destroy all the markets (it's well-known facts that unregulated markets tend to self-destruct… that's why there are competion law, after all), but this will not be triumph of the market. Quite the opposite. Sales on antiques are the opposite of a free market—the textbook case of market failure, that's why "big boys" are using them to store their wealth: when there are no market and shortage of offers prices are only going up. And, sadly, Amiga hardware slowly but surely moves into that category.

Sorry to say it, but there are a lot of people out there who collect computers. The demand is higher than when most people entered this hobby. Some people have more disposable income, their willingness to pay is higher, etc.

Exactly. More [potential] buyers, less stuff on the market (old computers die, you know), less information - perfect recipe for the market failure. Which will eventually happen, it's only natural - despite all the attempts of AmiBay to try to postpone it. But hey, if we'll manage to postpone destruction of market by a few years… that'll be good thing, isn't it?

 

[ratfink]

What happened to this hobby?

*deleted* i find myself tempted to troll haha

 

[DojoDan]

I've been scammed plenty of times, boils down to trust and generosity. Trusting others will post when they won't, and being generous to people I trusted. I've sold items to a collector who isn't a collector but an openly boasting trader, and I've also trusted seemingly nice people on gumtree. All mistakes, but I've learnt and moved on. Trouble is today, money for most ppl is not easily come by, and they don't want to, or can't sell there stuff cheap. I understand that. I would say most stuff I choose to sell I lose money on, full stop. I would really love to pick up plenty of retro goodies from charity or car boots and pass stuff on at rock bottom prices here, I'd love to do that, just a shame there's notmuch out there.

Just take a step back to consolidate. Enjoy what you have, enjoy the community and others generosity and return it in kind. Hopefully you'll find a happy balance.

 

[80sFREAK]

My guess, it is about cashflow. Scalpers attracted by cashflow in the trend.

 

[Retro-Protect]

Amibay should do a price guide with everyone's help here. Then we can spread it through social media perhaps. Between us, I think we can build a basic price guide of what things are rare enough to warrant high prices. Just an idea?

 

[RuneRider]

Since beginning this thread I've bid on several more A1200s and I'm seeing what appears to be the same group of bidders running the price up. They're even bidding on "Pick up only" machines and cannot all be near the sellers. This is so odd that I'm no longer going to bid on any machines in the UK.

 

[limboy777]

There is group of Amiga resellers on eBay who seem to bid on everything. Their feedback is in their thousands! . I think its what they do for a living rather than a hobby like the rest of us.

Since beginning this thread I've bid on several more A1200s and I'm seeing what appears to be the same group of bidders running the price up. They're even bidding on "Pick up only" machines and cannot all be near the sellers. This is so odd that I'm no longer going to bid on any machines in the UK.

 

[RuneRider]

There is group of Amiga resellers on eBay who seem to bid on everything. Their feedback is in their thousands! . I think its what they do for a living rather than a hobby like the rest of us.

I have no doubt about that being correct. You live in the UK. So, if the guy I see most often driving up the price on items I bid on buys the thing you bid on this week they may then list it for sale next week. If you manage to have the winning bid ( only because they're selling and not bidding against you ) then you've just paid them to rip you off.

People who "flip" for a living are why EVERTHING from old hardware to houses cost so much. They're a plague.

 

[UberFreak]

I started seriously collecting in the very late 90's.
Until about 6 years ago, all my stuff came from the one local flea market I used to visit once or twice a week.

Back then, most sellers didnt know exactly what they have, they called every all-in-one computer a "keyboard", and prices were very low, usually ridiculous.
These were glorious years for me, I bought a computer or console every few weeks.

Then, at some point in the mid-to-late 2000's, something bad happened.
The sellers started asking high prices for everything, and when I asked them about it they said that some customers told them its "retro" and worth a lot more "on the internet".

These days, I dont bother with Flea markets anymore. There's rarely anything interesting and when there is, I wouldnt pay the asking price.
Also, its very rare to see retro computers/consoles for sale here from private people and when there is something, the price is so insane that Ebay looks like an absolute bargain in comparison.

As a result, my humble collection is nearly at a stand-still for a several years now.
I dont see the situation improving, prices just keep going up!

 

[Retro-Protect]

My mate gave me a clipping from a newspaper and it was all about 70-80-90's electronics and how collectable they were becoming. They feature the Grandstand tabletop games (scramble, Firefox, astrowars etc) also Zx Spectrum, commodores and so on. After that I noticed prices going up and peoples reluctance to sell for a decent price. I think that people with no interest (apart from profit) have been buying up all the car boot, loft clearances all because the media have told them to. Now all the stuff is in the hands of people who only want to flog it on so we have to pay the inflated prices.

 

[RuneRider]

I truly wonder if people are so incredibly stupid that they buy "vintage" computers simply because they were told or read somewhere that these machines are collectible. They won't use or care for them because they know nothing about them and when the bubble bursts (as it must) they'll be left with machines they paid far too much for and no way to sell them. I at least understand the guy on ebay that either bids people up or outbids them in the UK. He wants to corner the market and keep online prices high because he's a greedy piece of garbage. He's in it for the money. The guy who bids on and buys an A1200 for no other reason than he heard it was valuable is a complete idiot. While both of these types are using air the rest of us deserve more at least the re-seller has a purpose, albeit one not worthy of praise.

 

[khimru]

Yes, people are this stupid and ignorant: read about MMM—and weep. People were burned with the original MMM, then some of the same people were burned with MMM-2011, MMM-2012, and MMM-2015! You'd think that when people lose their own money (sometimes all their money… and then some) they'd learn… nope, does not happen. There are also people who won with MMM, MMM-2011, MMM-2012, MMM-2015, you see—and the people who lose again and again think that difference is their luck, not anything else.

Difference between guy which drives bids up and tries to corner the market and guy which buys "vintage" computers simply because they were told or read somewhere that these machines are collectible is similar: one does it because he knows how to ride these bubbles (or thinks he knows how to ride these bubbles)—when "vintage" computers bubble will burst s/he's switch to another one bubble and another guy or gal (who are doing the same because they heard or read something) is just doing this because s/he knows that people are making money on these things (but does not know how or why) and wants "in". If you thought that modern people are exempt from cargo cult phenomenon then think again!

P.S. FWIW: I think contemporary extremely high prices will not last, that's very obvious bubble, but when it'll burst prices will not return back to where they were before bubble. Think tulips: yes, bubble have burst and lots of people lost lots of money, but today Holland still sells tulips by billions and makes good money on them!

 

[Retro-Protect]

Well a guy who I got a monitor off not long back had an entire storage lock-up full of nes, game gears, old video players, Amigas, stacks of XBox and PS1 stuff. He said he was hanging on to them until they were worth more? Which means they wont be found for cheap by a true hobbyist. Obviously, people like him have already been buying bulk stuff. I remember when our school was getting rid of there CBM-Pets and BBC micros.. They only wanted £1 for the pets and not much for the Micros.

 

[Station240]

The only valid reason for selling something for large amounts more than you paid, is when you've repaired or upgraded it. I've seen one ebay seller actually take credit for the work done to repair and upgrade a retro computer, when all he did was buy it from the guy that did all the work.

Problem is when these hoarders have no technical skills, and so things like leaking batteries kill machines which would have survived in the right hands.