What happened to this hobby?

[SaviorX]

but how is this different from anything else in this world...?

companies constantly take credit for the work of employees...then underpay the employees...all in the name of 'profits'....

sadly, you'd have to entirely alter human 'values'....altruism falls an incredibly distant second to 'doing better than the next guy'

underpaying someone for something (taking advantage of a: their kindness, b: their naivete, c: outright lack of knowledge about the item(s), or d: downright lying about what it is/is worth, are all somewhat acceptable in many peoples minds these days) then flipping it for 2x what others would think it's worth is not viewed as somewhat parasitic....but 'being smarter than everyone else' by those who engage in it... (and also those who think it's just right and proper for you to do as well as you can, and other people aren't your problem anyways)

enough....is never enough....

however, in terms of these vintage computers and many other things in our lives these days....they are luxuries...we simply do not NEED them, and would simply be better off in the long run saying no, and just doing without...

unfortunately, for a lot of people it seems "I want" and "I need" are the same thing.

In some respects..the architects of our own 'destruction'

 

[RuneRider]

I remember when our school was getting rid of there CBM-Pets and BBC micros.. They only wanted £1 for the pets and not much for the Micros.

I remember this as well and regret not acting. icard

- - - Updated - - -

but how is this different from anything else in this world...?

companies constantly take credit for the work of employees...then underpay the employees...all in the name of 'profits'....

sadly, you'd have to entirely alter human 'values'....atruism falls an incredibly distant second to 'doing better than the next guy'

underpaying someone for something (taking advantage of a: their kindness, b: their naivete, c: outright lack of knowledge about the item(s), or d: downright lying about what it is/is worth, are all somewhat acceptable in many peoples minds these days) then flipping it for 2x what others would think it's worth is not viewed as somewhat parasitic....but 'being smarter than everyone else' by those who engage in it... (and also those who think it's just right and proper for you to do as well as you can, and other people aren't your problem anyways)

enough....is never enough....

however, in terms of these vintage computers and many other things in our lives these days....they are luxuries...we simply do not NEED them, and would simply be better off in the long run saying no, and just doing without...

unfortunately, for a lot of people it seems "I want" and "I need" are the same thing.

In some respects..the architects of our own 'destruction'

True, people are what they are and none of us can change the greed and desire to be ahead of others that is built into us. However, we do have the ability to make the choice whether or not we screw our fellow man and those who believe doing so is fine deserve zero respect. The specific person I'm having issues with in the UK can be very thankful his shop is nowhere near me. I'd make it my mission to let everyone know what sort of person they are and let they're customers and neighbors decide how to respond. I've noticed they even wait to see if someone early bids on an item and baits them into a small bidding war to run the price up. If they don't really want the item they stop and the other bidders must now pay more. If they do want it they don't stop until they get it. This smells a lot like manipulation and tells me they are someone enjoying doing this. Whether they keep bids high or are the highest bidder they win. I just wish the victims of their actions knew they were being played. I'd report them to ebay but already know this would produce no result at all. I've tested this myself to see if it's true and they responded the same way each time. I lost auctions for six machines in the past 48 hrs to the same person.

It's fascinating that only a couple of people have total control of the Amiga market in the country where it is perhaps the most popular machine. No-one buying these machines on ebay in the UK will likely ever not pay too much as a result of these individuals. I'm sure they're actions are even causing the prices asked for here to be higher than they should be. I've even noticed machines in Europe that are listed as selling in the UK only because the sellers must know they can get more. Oddly these are also "Private" sales. I'm always suspicious of these.

 

[wmsteele]

Has been acting like this for years now, I’ve had a couple of run-ins with him myself, specifically when I was the seller. I don’t tend to sell any Amiga stuff these days outside AmiBay, individuals like this being one of the main reasons. Anything I do sell on the other bay, which isn’t very often, I’ve blocked a couple of ‘traders’ from bidding. Although while this initially worked, from comments back and forth over the years I’m sure more than one account is involved, which I would think would be against the rules?!? In the grand scale of things it’s a small time mister meaner operating this way, I’m sure the other bay have much bigger fish to fry. I’m surprised as to how effective a couple of individuals have been manipulating the market to this extent.

 

[freehand]

Who are we talking about danger mouses side kick and cadbury chocolates bubbles ?

 

[Grimakis]

Again. I can't agree with this line of thought.

People that flip things play an essential role in the every day economy. Brokers and dealers allow fluid transactions.

Think of four people.

Person A owns a vintage computer, he is willing to sell it for $100.
Person B is a reseller. He buys and sells things for a living, like any merchant.
Person C is a collector willing to pay $200 for the computer.
Person D is a collector willing to pay $300 for the computer.

Person B buys the computer from Person A for $100.
Person D buys it from Person B for $300.
Person C goes online and complains about it, citing greed, immorality, etc, because in reality they wanted to buy it for $100, were willing to pay $200, but someone was willing to pay $300. Person C believe themselves to be some sort of a "true collector" a person more worthy of owning the computer than Person A, B, or D.

Really what has happened, is Person A has taken a hard to reach object(available locally, or in a niche community), and brought it for sale in a larger market. Now Person D is able to own the item, that they were otherwise never going to find.

I did the same thing once with a $30 Wii game. it was sold out everywhere, yet my local Wal-Mart had two copies. I bought one for myself, and bought a second for eBay. I put it on eBay and it sold for $80. I connected a seller(Wal-mart) and a buyer(some kid thousands of miles away). I made $50(minus taxes and eBay and PayPal fees). Everybody wins. I made some money for my time, someone got the game they wanted at the price they wanted it for, Wal-mart got their $30, and eBay got their chunk of it for facilitating it all.

People that resell aren't the scum of the earth. They are the people that allow goods and resources to flow through the greater economy. They are the reason that large corporations are allowed to exist. They are the reason small corporations are able to acquire resources to start-up and innovate. Without market-makers we would all be living in a more primitive society. A society before trade. One where people harvested the natural resources around them, and if you didn't live in an area with cows, you never had beef. You certainly never had Amigas.

 

[CrazyC]

As even I know who you mean I guess we probably are!

 

[khimru]

People that resell aren't the scum of the earth. They are the people that allow goods and resources to flow through the greater economy.

Could we, please, stop mixing the issues? Nobody hates resellers. Heck, people like stachu or bebek are very highly valued members of community - even if they sell a lot of stuff.

People hate hoarders, scalpers - and for good reason. They kill the communities and, more importantly, they destroy the markets.

Think of four people.

Person A owns a vintage computer, he is willing to sell it for $100.
Person B is a reseller. He buys and sells things for a living, like any merchant.
Person C is a collector willing to pay $200 for the computer.
Person D is a collector willing to pay $300 for the computer.

What if B decides that $300 is not enough? He'll still grab goods from Person A but will sit on it till Person E will arrive who'll pay $500. Because, well, it's more lucrative for him to sell one item for $500 than two for $200 and $300! Even if half of goods will be destroyed in the end - he'll be better of because it'll be more lucrative for him!

Such things couldn't happen in a free market: there will be more suppliers and eventually equilibrium would be found. But old computers market is not a free market! There are limited supply and thus there are high chance to distort the market, too!

They are the reason that large corporations are allowed to exist.

Indeed. But they are very heavily regulated! Exactly because that could distort the market. If they try to hoard stuff - they could be fined. But when market is small even [relatively] small collector could distort it! It's as simple as that.

They are the reason small corporations are able to acquire resources to start-up and innovate.

Well, sure. It's called competition law. When big boys conspire to kick out small players out (as the resellers we are talking about here are doing) - they are punished.

Without market-makers we would all be living in a more primitive society. A society before trade. One where people harvested the natural resources around them, and if you didn't live in an area with cows, you never had beef. You certainly never had Amigas.

Agree 100%. The progress started when hoarders-in-law were deemed illegal: dark ages when small numbers of people (guild members) held monopoly over certain parts of life ended and the industrial revolution followed.

Since then it's constant struggle: you couldn't punish large companies too severely because some things are just not achievable by a small group (think large-body aircrafts or even a CPUs) but if you just leave them alone - they'll create a cartels, guilds and so on - and the dark ages will return.

 

[Grimakis]

Hi,

I guess I was responding to this comment on the previous page:

"People who "flip" for a living are why EVERTHING from old hardware to houses cost so much. They're a plague."

Also, again if we are talking about the hobby in general, it's not fair to believe that people are cornering the market on mass-produced computers that sold in the hundreds of thousands or even millions. Maybe with really scarce items you will see that. However I would attribute rising prices to a number of things.

A) Economic Recovery
B) Shifting demand - Due to increased number of buyers(many younger computer enthusiasts are in or have just graduated from college. Now they seek the expensive machines they could never afford as a lad)
C) Perceived scarcity - More and more computers are in the hands of collectors, and less and less can be found for dirt cheap at tag sales and such. Because they used to be so abundantly cheap at a flea market, people would never justify paying "retail". But now that they are harder to find out there, more and more people are willing to pay the eBay price.

There are many factors that lead to rising prices. I sincerely doubt that scalpers have a pivotal role. The scenario you described is the general scenario for an illiquid good. The seller is constantly asking a higher price than the buyer wants to pay, and it might take a long time for a transaction to occur. Kind of sucks for the seller too, because they might need to take a loss(or break even, but you're never really breaking even if you're wasting your time), or they have a bunch of money tied up in vintage computers. Personally, I don't mind having my money tied up in vintage computers. They are cool, I use them, and I'll probably never sell them. But to a reseller, it's no picnic to need to pay your monthly rent, only to remind yourself that your money is sitting in your closet, in the form of Amiga peripherals.

 

[khimru]

Also, again if we are talking about the hobby in general, it's not fair to believe that people are cornering the market on mass-produced computers that sold in the hundreds of thousands or even millions.

Really? Hundreds of thousands as in "0.5 hundred of thousands" and millions as in "0.05 millions"? It's hard to say how many Amigas were sold in UK, but 95,000 systems were sold in Germany before Commodore's bankruptcy. I don't think they all have survived. And we are talking about guys with feedback numbers measured in thousands! Is it really unbelievable that they could corner the market? Especially if there are few of these?

Maybe with really scarce items you will see that. However I would attribute rising prices to a number of things.

Amigas are quite scarce novadays. Not as rare as large diamonds but pretty damn rare nonetheless. Especially A1200 and A4000D (and let's not even talk about A3000T and A4000T!).

 

[tbtorro]

...

P.S. FWIW: I think contemporary extremely high prices will not last, that's very obvious bubble, but when it'll burst prices will not return back to where they were before bubble. Think tulips: yes, bubble have burst and lots of people lost lots of money, but today Holland still sells tulips by billions and makes good money on them!

Probably the reason the tulip bubble has burst is because the possibility of albeit slow, but endless supply of new (even the rare flawed) bulbs. It was going to be just the matter of time before growers would catch up with demand.

In comparison, the supply of original Amiga gear is capped, perhaps could increase somewhat as people find their forgotten machines in their closet, but will only shrink on the long run as they break down or get thrown to recycling. Hence IMHO there will be no bubble at all, prices will just top at one point. Also it's unlikely that people will start trading 'Amiga futures' which was the biggest contributing factor of the tulip bubble in the first place.

 

[alexh]

The bubble has burst for several items where new ones have been made widely available. Deneb could sell for €x but the launch of XSurf100 and RapidRoad has reduced it. Apollo 620/630 have halved in value with a range of A600 accelerators not to mention Vampire600. The same happened to DKB 3128 which could command hundreds of £££ then two similar cards zorRAM and BigRAMplus have reduced their value to one third what it was

 

[tbtorro]

The bubble has burst for several items where new ones have been made widely available. Deneb could sell for €x but the launch of XSurf100 and RapidRoad has reduced it. Apollo 620/630 have halved in value with a range of A600 accelerators not to mention Vampire600. The same happened to DKB 3128 which could command hundreds of £££ then two similar cards zorRAM and BigRAMplus have reduced their value to one third what it was

Well it's hardly a 'bubble burst' I think as there was no bubble at all. (and won't be) It's simply a price adjustment to supply-demand.

 

[RuneRider]

Interestingly I just saw some of the machines that the guy I've been talking about bid up and actually win come back for sale. I guess they were just running the price up and thought the other bidders would top their final bid. They didn't want the machines after all. I'm surprised the sellers let them out of the deals. So perhaps I was correct in that this person may sometimes only do this to hurt other bidders as sport. I wish they'd been forced to pay.

 

[Sardine]

Yep same thing has happened to me. I sold something here recently and while browsing eBay I saw my item listed there, verified with the visible serial number. It was priced considerably higher than what I asked for it.

I guess there isn't much we can do about it.

Regards

after a lengthy (replies where weeks apart) the member in question was banned today (was frozen while under investigation)

only a small consolation,,

 

[TheAl]

These days, I dont bother with Flea markets anymore. There's rarely anything interesting and when there is, I wouldnt pay the asking price.
Also, its very rare to see retro computers/consoles for sale here from private people and when there is something, the price is so insane that Ebay looks like an absolute bargain in comparison.

There is still stuff out there - I got a boxed A600 from a Carboot for <snip> earlier this year. It all depends who is selling. Some just want to get rid quick and they are obviously cheap. You do get the sellers who know its worth but they will never sell at a high price at a Carboot, they still try though

 

[cugar124]

This is what is taking away the chance of younger well off Retro games from having the original gear, I have been caught like that but expect it to happen Amibay has guys who suck up loads of Items then they appear again months later but again its away for them to fund better specced machines, Ebay for Amiga gear is a nightmare now unless you are really lucky I got my 1260 for a great price and was well happy.

AL

 

[RuneRider]

Ebay for Amiga gear is a nightmare now unless you are really lucky I got my 1260 for a great price and was well happy.

AL

True, sometimes one gets lucky. My recent A4000d purchase was a dream come true. After complaining to the seller about not packaging it properly and some damage occurring they refunded me nearly 30%. In the end the machine is worth far more than I thought and I'm extremely pleased.

 

[vladimpaler]

In no particular order, some observations.

First, my background. Have always been self-employed, running an IT VAR along with my partners. I guess you could call me a 'proper' businessman, as in business skills are required to do what I do i.e. HR, accountancy, sales etc etc. Things progress, and I am now an IT Director for a national organisation. I started out in the mid 90's collecting stuff. I too noticed the sudden rise in prices once people suddenly 'got it'; along with the rise of the 'scalper' as some of you put it. This rise in an inevitable part of what the internet has brought us. This increase in information, and connectivity to the whole world has enabled all of us to have the habit of ours; to talk to each other, to make our own community; having never actually met. That simply was not possible before c1995.

I used to look down my nose at EBay sellers and 'scalpers'. They are clueless pigs - all they know is how to shaft people for as much money as possible; without contributing anything like, say VAT, corporation tax, or indeed any customer service; whereas me...well I am somehow better than them because of what I do, so I deserve to make a profit and they don't! I too, blamed them for the increase in prices; until one day I realised - I was just sore about not being able to buy an Amiga 600 in a box for a song on a Sunday afternoon from some unsuspecting seller. I noted this coming up time and again in the thread; gloating about 'what a deal I used to get back in the day' and then moaning about scalpers! You can't have it both ways - if you are knowingly using the seller's lack of knowledge to your advantage, then you are a 'scalper' (not my word) yourself. I realised that I was being completely unreasonable.

To me, the above thoughts made me realise that I was simply sore about the salad days being over. Fact is that there are many, many more people interested in collecting old Amigas/classic cars/watches/IT/you name it than there was. The market will stand what the market will stand. This talk of refusing to sell to 'some' people to artificially supress the market price of something is just as bad as doing the same thing to increase it. It is market distortion - Japan and the USA ended up in an all-out trade war in the mid 80s due to this very problem; dumping of memory chips on the US market at below cost to destroy domestic competition. That said, what you do and who you sell to is your business. I am not criticising anyone; just acquainting you all (for what it worth) with my realisation about myself and the root of my own unreasonable and contradictory opinions.

Frankly, it is a nonsense to suddenly decide that the Amiga market is unfair/too expensive. How much is too much? What is too cheap? How many of us on here could honestly say that if we saw an Amiga 1200 for sale for a price that is obviously not representative of the true value (as you see it) we would tell the seller; sorry, I want to pay you more? We would buy it, and then post a thread about what a great bargain find we had just made; wouldn't we? Prices are individual to each transaction - and it has been this way since the invention of currency and the division of labour.

 

[davideo]

@vladimpaler

The discussion of prices on AmiBay is a no-no. I'm afraid that I'm going to have to edit parts of your post.

 

[Pghulme]

Way I look at it
id love to collect Sports cars, I can't afford them
id love to collect Amigas, I can afford them

Take your learning from "Wall Street"(Film), there's always someone willing to make money off you, and if they don't, someone else will