What happened to this hobby?

[vladimpaler]

@davideo; fair enough, was not aware of that. I will rewrite it to remove the offending issues.

 

[khimru]

I know that price discussions are forbidden, but I just want to point out this:
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: lightyellow"][SIZE=+1]Commodore Amiga 4000[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: lightyellow"]

Released:	September 1992
Price:	US $3,699
CPU:	Motorola 68040 @ 25MHz
RAM:	2MB - 18MB onboard

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
When was the last time you've seen Amiga 4000 in original form (unupgraded, without a GPU, 68060, etc) sold for US $3,699? Heck, Amiga 1200 today is just a bit more expensive than it was 23 years ago! And that's even if we forget that US $1 today and US $1 23 years ago are a bit different, LOL.

Yes, vintage computers are becoming more expensive, but as rule they are still not as expensive as they were when they were first sold - only a few models which were incredibly cheap when first presented are now more expensive!

 

[ptp170]

I foresee this thread getting locked if people keep on ignoring the Amibay rules about not discussing prices..

 

[UberFreak]

There is still stuff out there - I got a boxed A600 from a Carboot for <snip> earlier this year. It all depends who is selling. Some just want to get rid quick and they are obviously cheap. You do get the sellers who know its worth but they will never sell at a high price at a Carboot, they still try though

There are only two active flea-markets I know of here, both are organized (the sellers have to pay for their spot).
These are people who make their living by selling there. They buy lots from various places and some of them go through trash to find items to sell.
I used to frequent both places since the late 90's. Back then old computers & consoles were considered as useless junk and prices were so ridiculous you could fill up a car with stuff.
In the last 7-8 years though, these sellers became "educated": everything old is now "vintage" and priced accordingly...

 

[Goddy]

There is still stuff out there - I got a boxed A600 from a Carboot for <snip> earlier this year. It all depends who is selling. Some just want to get rid quick and they are obviously cheap. You do get the sellers who know its worth but they will never sell at a high price at a Carboot, they still try though

There are only two active flea-markets I know of here, both are organized (the sellers have to pay for their spot).
These are people who make their living by selling there. They buy lots from various places and some of them go through trash to find items to sell.
I used to frequent both places since the late 90's. Back then old computers & consoles were considered as useless junk and prices were so ridiculous you could fill up a car with stuff.
In the last 7-8 years though, these sellers became "educated": everything old is now "vintage" and priced accordingly...

Late 90s I remember those days :'( old consoles were so cheap back then

 

[rootboy]

I keep it simple, I only buy, I never sell (I would rather give it away to someone who shows interest). And I have to continually stop myself from becoming a "Hoarder". And I find that I'll get something, and then forget that I have it, and then buy another. I can see where this behavior is almost as bad as the other.

 

[Pghulme]

I keep it simple, I only buy, I never sell (I would rather give it away to someone who shows interest). And I have to continually stop myself from becoming a "Hoarder". And I find that I'll get something, and then forget that I have it, and then buy another. I can see where this behavior is almost as bad as the other.

i do the same and find I have several of the same, for some reason I ended up with 4 copies of Toki, I was after it so bad I forgot I'd already found it already and was just in loft

 

[rootboy]

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

 

[hillbillysuv]

I'd just like to say I'm grateful to the people who created and maintain Amibay. I've only recently come back to the hobby, but I have already come to appreciate the site.
So far I've only bought parts to repair or upgrade what I've already gotten locally. For now I enjoy taking dead stuff and making it work again. When it comes time to part with things I'd rather trade if possible.

 

[SnowyDog]

In the UK at least I generally find that it is possible to buy stuff at reasonable prices (even on ebay) when the only available shipping method is "collection in person".

The profiteers don't seem to care enough to travel and it also avoids stuff getting destroyed by ham-fisted couriers.

 

[Zetr0]

Fascinating thread indeed!

That's sad and also an extreme example of greed, but I guess it goes with the fact that speculation is out of control these days with everything retro, mostly where hardware is concerned. IMO the best deals can only be found in local flea markets and specialised sites where a bunch of people share a common interest and trade among them keeping reasonable prices. *bay and any international bidding site are the last places where you can expect to make new friends, and that includes Amibay, sadly. Fortunately, at least software is still affordable around here.

I haven't used AmiBay as much over the last year as much I did in the beginning - but I would still have to dissagree with AmiBay being the "last" place to make new friends. This community that has built up on the back of a free retro trading site is indeed a shining example of what the internet is about!

Honestly, all of us (Amibay) are taking huge blame for raising prices:

1. Leaving prices in sales threads after sales - next person will add x% seeing that it was sold for this price and was a lot of interest. That is normal and not a seller fault. If I sell something I want to be sure that if I change my mind I will be able to buy it back later from somebody else for similar price ...
2. Some sellers sets outrageous prices and I think there is no way that somebody will buy it. Some time later "dum dum" it is sold oh:. What happens next? See point one. We can not comment prices but sometimes it is very difficult not to.

On point one I see the example your trying to make, and its quite annoying when people see postage as part of the price (its a transcendent cost of obtaining the item) - however prices in sales thread are need on two counts - 1. Legal documentation of transaction and 2. Community information and education.

Even if we didn't need documentation of the transaction (should a members transaction hits the fan or is reported stolen goods etc) - it would egregious and in some ways fraud if we actively removed that information therefore reducing the available knowledge for our fellow members - and I would ask for whom's benefit does that serve.


Now point 2... there my friend you hit a nail on the head!

Prices are set by the market. People are always strange about this. On every retro community, I see people complaining about prices being "driven up" by resellers. In reality, prices have been artificially low, due to an informationally inefficient market. As eBay gives people a source of historical prices, the market becomes more efficient. The market prices becomes closer to what the consumer values it at.

Sorry to say it, but there are a lot of people out there who collect computers. The demand is higher than when most people entered this hobby. Some people have more disposable income, their willingness to pay is higher, etc. It's a shame that some people will be driven out of the hobby because they will no longer be able to afford it.

That's how the world works. Communities like Amibay exist, trying to keep prices artificially deflated. This will only work for so long. Eventually the cost of purchasing a computer outside of Amibay will be so much higher, that people won't be able to afford to sell their stuff at a loss.

That's just my two-cents. I've never bought or sold anything here, so what do I know.

I wanted to say this was quite and insightful post, thanks for the thoughts on this. I would argue on the latter point as to why Communities exist, in regards to these fair hallowed boards - the community came later - much later than the concept of a free retro trading site based on forum software LOL.

In the beginning I was against expanding community activities - wanting AmiBay to focus only on the trading side .... how wrong was I... the community grew and gave this place the soul it has today. I couldn't be more happier for being proven so wrong.

Amibay should do a price guide with everyone's help here. Then we can spread it through social media perhaps. Between us, I think we can build a basic price guide of what things are rare enough to warrant high prices. Just an idea?

No no... no no no..... no no no...... let me explain.... lets take say an A2000 - Rev 6

This will have a different set of market forces pending where in the world its located and where its being sold, its quite likey you trip over them in Europe, however they are likely to be as rare as hens teeth in Israel, Russia to name but a few. Now, what I think is a reasonable price would be guaranteed to be met lots of valid arguments as to why its worth £X more or £X less - and that doesn't even get into how a community assumes goods values via declaring itself an authority.... (thats a very dodgy path to go down indeed)

Now nothing stop people doing research and using data here and on the rest of the internet to compile said goods value lists - it will take a lot of time and brain power to work all the variables and market trends... and after a couple of good years you may even have a great database that is teeming with good data.... only for its be smashed to bits when someone says.... yeah thats just not right for me I will sell / buy at this much.

In the Rules and Guidelines we have it explained in such a way -

"The worth of an item, any 3rd party stating the worth of an item would most likely end up starting a flame war, when you are just trying to help. (Both Harrison and I got caught by this in the early days of AmiBay). The main reason is that what one might pay for an item where there are an abundance of said items, would be much cheaper than other locations on the globe where the same item could be rarer, thus prices would have to reflect that. Asking for a value for an item is also a form of indirect price driving and may attract both public and private bidding, which is against the ethos of AmiBay. You will generate more respect from buyers and members if you do your homework and ask what YOU feel is fair price."
​

but how is this different from anything else in this world...?

companies constantly take credit for the work of employees...then underpay the employees...all in the name of 'profits'....

sadly, you'd have to entirely alter human 'values'....altruism falls an incredibly distant second to 'doing better than the next guy'

underpaying someone for something (taking advantage of a: their kindness, b: their naivete, c: outright lack of knowledge about the item(s), or d: downright lying about what it is/is worth, are all somewhat acceptable in many peoples minds these days) then flipping it for 2x what others would think it's worth is not viewed as somewhat parasitic....but 'being smarter than everyone else' by those who engage in it... (and also those who think it's just right and proper for you to do as well as you can, and other people aren't your problem anyways)

enough....is never enough....

however, in terms of these vintage computers and many other things in our lives these days....they are luxuries...we simply do not NEED them, and would simply be better off in the long run saying no, and just doing without...

unfortunately, for a lot of people it seems "I want" and "I need" are the same thing.

In some respects..the architects of our own 'destruction'

Be true to yourself and don't let the actions of others define you or your own set of ethics - yeah there are a few asshats out there that are only in it for themselves - but these people get outed eventually - in the premise to conceptualize we missed the premise that this (AmiBay) is a community it is owned, run, monitored and overseen by the community.

In no particular order, some observations.

First, my background. Have always been self-employed, running an IT VAR along with my partners. I guess you could call me a 'proper' businessman, as in business skills are required to do what I do i.e. HR, accountancy, sales etc etc. Things progress, and I am now an IT Director for a national organisation. I started out in the mid 90's collecting stuff. I too noticed the sudden rise in prices once people suddenly 'got it'; along with the rise of the 'scalper' as some of you put it. This rise in an inevitable part of what the internet has brought us. This increase in information, and connectivity to the whole world has enabled all of us to have the habit of ours; to talk to each other, to make our own community; having never actually met. That simply was not possible before c1995.

I used to look down my nose at EBay sellers and 'scalpers'. They are clueless pigs - all they know is how to shaft people for as much money as possible; without contributing anything like, say VAT, corporation tax, or indeed any customer service; whereas me...well I am somehow better than them because of what I do, so I deserve to make a profit and they don't! I too, blamed them for the increase in prices; until one day I realised - I was just sore about not being able to buy an Amiga 600 in a box for a song on a Sunday afternoon from some unsuspecting seller. I noted this coming up time and again in the thread; gloating about 'what a deal I used to get back in the day' and then moaning about scalpers! You can't have it both ways - if you are knowingly using the seller's lack of knowledge to your advantage, then you are a 'scalper' (not my word) yourself. I realised that I was being completely unreasonable.

To me, the above thoughts made me realise that I was simply sore about the salad days being over. Fact is that there are many, many more people interested in collecting old Amigas/classic cars/watches/IT/you name it than there was. The market will stand what the market will stand. This talk of refusing to sell to 'some' people to artificially supress the market price of something is just as bad as doing the same thing to increase it. It is market distortion - Japan and the USA ended up in an all-out trade war in the mid 80s due to this very problem; dumping of memory chips on the US market at below cost to destroy domestic competition. That said, what you do and who you sell to is your business. I am not criticising anyone; just acquainting you all (for what it worth) with my realisation about myself and the root of my own unreasonable and contradictory opinions.

Frankly, it is a nonsense to suddenly decide that the Amiga market is unfair/too expensive. How much is too much? What is too cheap? How many of us on here could honestly say that if we saw an Amiga 1200 for sale for a price that is obviously not representative of the true value (as you see it) we would tell the seller; sorry, I want to pay you more? We would buy it, and then post a thread about what a great bargain find we had just made; wouldn't we? Prices are individual to each transaction - and it has been this way since the invention of currency and the division of labour.

Another insightful post / perspective and one that should echo the primary point here.

Even if we like it or not AmiBay is a place to buy, sell and trade outmoded luxury goods of the retro computer / console persuasion - sadly long gone are the days one could cheaply enter the retro hobby - yet I am a firm believer in communities and their willingness to share their joy and excitement with everyone around them - if some one truly wanted to get into the hobby I am pretty sure many would help - I know that I have and will continue to do so.

 

[sputnik]

Greed is everywhere.

I bought an item as a "Buy It Now" on a well-known auction site. The price was very, very good! I was so happy to get such a bargain in these less bargainy times.

The seller mailed, telling me that someone had offered 3x what I paid, and asked the seller to cancel the (already arranged) courier delivery. But not to worry, they would honour my purchase. They also let me know the ID of this nefarious would-be bidder (probably shouldn't have, but it was informative)

Now, I can understand feeling aggrieved at missing out on a cheap Buy It Now (it's usually me that does!), but this sort of behaviour goes beyond that and is pretty disgusting, no?

Worst of all, I happen to know the person in question is a regular seller of vintage computing equipment. I shall never ever deal with them after learning how they operate.

This, and a few other instances of blatant rubbish behaviour, have put me off this whole "scene" completely. I can barely enjoy the hobby anymore trying to bat away all the vultures.

Every so often I check back on (well known auction site), and here, to see if things have cooled off, but they seem to get worse and worse.

No "new" items for me anytime soon

 

[UberFreak]

Sad but true.

 

[Tetrium]

This is what we term 'scalping' on here and we don't like it. If we discover a 'scalper', we usually have words with them and if that doesn't work, we have our own little island, located just off the Icelandic coast called 'Bänned' that we can send them to, for an extended holiday.

Blankstare and AmigaRulez spring to mind as notable villains

So what happened to these 2?

 

[RuneRider]

I recently had a back and forth with a seller on the often referred to auction site about selling a non-working item for what working ones have sold for. Their response was that since I would likely fix the item quickly myself they had the right to ask an amount that a working version was worth. they said "why should you make more selling it on?" I said that I was a collector and rarely sold anything. I also pointed out that the hard work and knowledge that allowed me to repair it gives me the right to get more if I did sell it. They also stated "before you ask, I also make money on shipping. I'm entitled to do so." I'd not looked at the shipping yet as I merely wanted to find out what was so special about this item that made it worth so much while non-functional. I stated I doubted it would sell but I hoped they found a buyer. The final message from them was that if it did not sell "I'll just recycle it". :double

I bought the same item that was in working condition, boxed and including all manuals for much less with shipping at half the cost.

It won't be long before the garbage doing these things make our hobby un-affordable and destroy many good machines and parts.

 

[snoopy77]

I recently had a back and forth with a seller on the often referred to auction site about selling a non-working item for what working ones have sold for. Their response was that since I would likely fix the item quickly myself they had the right to ask an amount that a working version was worth. they said "why should you make more selling it on?" I said that I was a collector and rarely sold anything. I also pointed out that the hard work and knowledge that allowed me to repair it gives me the right to get more if I did sell it. They also stated "before you ask, I also make money on shipping. I'm entitled to do so." I'd not looked at the shipping yet as I merely wanted to find out what was so special about this item that made it worth so much while non-functional. I stated I doubted it would sell but I hoped they found a buyer. The final message from them was that if it did not sell "I'll just recycle it". :double

I bought the same item that was in working condition, boxed and including all manuals for much less with shipping at half the cost.

It won't be long before the garbage doing these things make our hobby un-affordable and destroy many good machines and parts.

Realistically they'll just have to reduce the price till it sells. If they think something broken is worth the same as non broken then they won't sell it.

 

[Retro_Lover]

These ads for broken machines are getting nuts. The prices are nuts, along with the shipping. And I hate it when the seller says it's probably an easy fix, as if. If it was easy then why don't you fix it.
What is getting mental is the selling of empty boxes at seriously mental prices, almost as much as the machine it housed. I followed a SNES box a couple of months ago and it eventually went for almost ----, and the seller even had the audacity to want postage of £8. Look up the prices of a Atari Jaguar box, it's almost as if the seller splits the Jaguar from the box and sells it separately, mental!!! My Jag is unboxed, and it can stay that way.

Lately, I'm noticing ads where the seller doesn't want to post, collection only, and it's getting quite common. I understand on a old crt tv/monitor, but even then when I'm prepared to pay the postage they don't want to post.

 

[baz67]

Absolutely, Retro_Lover.

A case in point happening right now on a certain auction site, not a million miles from here... 4 'non-tested' (you can safely read as 'non-working') ORICs are being advertised at ---- each...that's steep enough but to cap it all... the guy's flogging an empty ORIC box and at the close of play it had reached ----

Not bad for a bit of cardboard and two polys which some folk would bin as this week's garbage...

Meanwhile, some other folks are making some serious lolly.

 

[Retro-Protect]

If people keep buying these things for stupid prices then people will charge stupid prices. I keep seeing SNES games that are still sealed going for hundreds and even over a thousand £?
Thats money to burn right there!

 

[thecellartroll]

People in this hobby are still nice. Loads of them. Anyone who knows me from this site, other retro forums and a few Facebook groups will know that my skills with electronics verge on the totally inept. And yet, I've been able to repair retro machines, build modern upgrades to retro machines, diagnose faults and replace hard to find parts, all thanks to other people in the retro scene helping me for no reward whatsoever.

Last year I bought a TV from a well known UK chain store. They kindly offered to sell me access to a support service that would help me set up the TV by telephone. And they'd only charge me £45 for that! WOW! £45 for help setting up a TV that sets itself up when you plug it in. That is where the profiteering scumbags lurk! In contrast with retro hardware problems you can often get assistance from somewhere in the world 24 hours a day from people who do it for free, just because they want to. Nice people in a nice hobby.

There are folks out there making tasty new hardware upgrades for our ancient machines and selling them for either no profit or hardly any profit. I doubt anyone is making the UK minimum wage by doing it. But they are nice people helping out others with an enjoyable pastime.

The hobby isn't all about buying and selling old machines. There is so much more. Ignore the ones you consider overpriced. I'm sorry that it seems that the OP got screwed over by a few people working together. That is no pleasant at all, but if something like that happened on this site I don't believe that the culprits would have access for very long. But lets face it, there are bad people everywhere that there is money. How many dodgy used car sales go through every day? How many landlords rent out properties that will actually make you ill? How many "charity representatives" will bully and harass vulnerable people into handing over their bank details in the street? The more you get involved in buying and selling the more likely you are to come across someone with no scruples. My advice is to take a look at some of the non selling sections of the site, or the wanted threads. You'll see how nice some people can be.