Working with charities

[AmiNeo]

Hey guys I'd like to share with you a little matter of difficulty I'm having regarding a placement I have undertaken for my degree. I'd like some perspective if possible so I can get some other points of view to help me handle it.

For CPD a module that makes up a part of our degree, we need to locate someone that needs a project doing so that we can undergo 150 hours of project based work.

A fellow student got in touch with a charity a fair distance from me who needs 2 separate websites redoing and updating and he asked me if I would like to do the second one since he can only do one during the time given. He said that if I can get to his he'd be fine giving me a lift the rest of the way so I agreed and we have started going in once or twice per week to work on the site on their premises. We each have a separate website and a lot of the development is also being done at home during our spare time due to the amount of work that needs doing.

This week after coming up with a number of basic designs as I had agreed to do for them prior, they pulled out a pile of sheets with what appears to be a completed website already designed and printed out. My initial designs which I spent a number of hours on barely got a comment and they stated that this is what they want, referring to the sheets, which had obviously existed for a long time prior to my starting there.

They have also stated that they would not be entirely happy including the time were putting in outside of our visits in the 150 hours that they need to sign off. Working it out, if I were to put in 150 purely on their premises inside the time we have around everything else we need to do for the other modules, I will still be there at the end of February and it will set me back well over £250 in travel costs.

On the last visit yesterday I was told "Lets be honest, if you were to come in for 3 solid days 9 to 5 and put the work in we'd have a website done and dusted wouldn't we?" icard This is completely unrealistic and I can't help but get the feeling that they expect the website to be completely redesigned and rebuilt in under 30 hours so they can use up the other 120 on some other random labour that benefits them which is not what we're there for or acceptable for our assignment.
Aside from this we were not supposed to begin until January, but we were given the go ahead by our course leader as they wanted someone sooner. The university however has been slow dishing out the assignments and so I don't even have the assignment brief to work from and try to work something out.

Aside from all this I'm trying to learn C#, build a completely separate website for someone else as part of another module, keep up with CCNA networking exams and prepare for programming exams. The other assignments will be due to be handed out soon too.

I'm not sure what I'm looking for entirely by posting here but I would like to hear peoples thoughts. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed and I'm a little uncertain what I can do to get across to this charity who appear to have unrealistic ideas about how demanding the task I've set out to accomplish for them is without being unreasonable or unprofessional. :double

It's worth noting that the woman in charge who were dealing with is in her 60s or 70's and knows nothing about web design. The other guy sadly is a little too easy going and appears to be happy doing anything they throw at him, which isn't helping his project's focus.

 

[BrooksterMax]

I had to do a voluntary placement for 1 month as part of my degree. It was quite a distance away from my parents and I incurred a fair amount of personal cost (lunch, travel & time) which was not reimbursed. So I understand your problem there!

My placement was with a Library Service and I had very low expectations but really enjoyed it. They had no idea about computers, mostly middle aged and I fixed loads of things for them even know my degree was not computing!

I loved their backup of a database which was made using Winzip and written as a zip file spanning over about 7 floppy disks each week. And the same disks were used each time, kept in the cupboard near the server. This was 2001 I massively LOL'd at that (used Windows NT 4.0 too).

Anyway it was all good experience and I have happy memories of it - I was glad I did it even though I did not really look forward to it.

As for unrealistic expectations that does sound tricky but just go with the flow. When you sit down with her/them, just show what you intend to do and what you can do. A bit of patience will be required, but be clear with your explanations - and if they are not IT literate avoid throwing too much jargon and IT words at them.

You will never finish the work anyway - there will always be more that needs doing!

Most importantly, try and have fun - you will look back on it in later life as a learning experience. I got a reference from my place which I used for applying for jobs after Uni.

Good luck.
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729)

 

[AmiNeo]

Thanks for the input. I think the first thing I'm going to have to do is get the assignment brief from the university. Given the recent delays and the fact that we aren't expected to start until January, that may prove a little difficult and I may have to have a word with our course leader who unfortunately is away until next week. . I think the first port of call needs to be to build some evidence that I'm doing something and on the off chance this goes pear shaped I could probably do with some documented evidence of the difficulty I'm having, so I'll put something in a report about the way things are at the moment.


Also I have to say, thanks to Amibay for having a general chat section. I realise were not a counsellor group but it really helps to be able to discuss the situation and get it out like this. Given also that many here are IT based people, and friendly to boot, I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather have advice from.

 

[thecellartroll]

If your course brief is to design a website, but they want you to create one based on a design brief that they've already made before your involvement, I would get out ASAP as you're not going to get what you need for your course out of it. Also in my experience people designing websites with no clue about good website design results in headaches for the poor bugger that has to put them together and then neither party being happy at the end of it.

If its going to cost you loads of money (and to me £250 is a lot to put into a voluntary project) I'd also advise you to get out! Its totally unreasonable of them to refuse to sign off on time spent off of their premesis. What professional freelance web designer will do the lions share of the work at the clients premesis. None - and the point with placements is to work in a realistic working environment.

I'm sure that you can find someone local to create a website for; people are looking for websites all the time. Charity or business, someone will appreciate your efforts rather than taking your free labour for a ride.

Sorry to sound harsh on charities, but having registered charity status does not automatically mean that they are nice people.

 

[AmiNeo]

Thanks TCT, As the placement is for CPD (continued professional development) it doesn't necessarily need to be a website but it does need to be IT based being part of a computer science degree and has to be project focused, but other than that can be anything. A website at the time seemed ideal since there would be planning, design, studying etc but as things are right now, though its reasonably practical provided they maintain a more realistic expectation on the time frame, isn't exactly ideal. They seem to expect it done within a week or so and that's just not an option, both practically and course wise.

I get your point about how any pro web designer wouldn't do it, I feel the same way and so far I've only been in twice and each time they've asked more and more of me. If they ask any more next time I'm there I think I'll just have to explain that it's becoming unreasonable and tell them I will have to find something else if what I'm offering isn't satisfactory. I thought this would be mutually beneficial but instead I feel like they're trying to use my 150 hours on everything they need doing instead of what I need. I also get the feeling that they guy who arranged this, the other student, may not have made it clear what the requirements are so I will need to clear that up with them as well. But that might prove difficult without the assignment brief. icard lol.

Perhaps its time I grew my testicals out some more...

 

[Slayer]

Yip, I'd flip them the bird in no uncertain terms and get out of there asap... just get another location sorted, don't stress, it'll work out...

How dare they demand and exploit of someone trying to sort themselves out... bloody opportunists and nothing more...


Why did you even post here, you already knew what you wanted to do

 

[fishyfish]

The problem with people who arent computer literate is that they dont undersand that it's still quite some work even for those that do.
Typically the assume, "oh, he knows computers, this will be no problem for him", while in reality even the most knowledgable people still have to research and learn new things constantly (or fall behind the curve ball. Even if its soething simple like web design it can still take time to come up with something decent.

All you can really do is to explain what your concerns are, and why. Without having done that there's a good chance theyre oblivious to the fact what theyre asking is unreasonable.

One more thing to consider is that you've approached them so you cant expect a one way street. You cant walk into a business and say, "this is what I need" and then expect them to accomodate you exactly to your liking.

 

[McVenco]

Show them this story:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

:mrgreen:

 

[AmiNeo]

The situation is more like, a fellow student in my class, while searching for placements for himself, spotted an ad which this organisation posted that stated they need someone with knowledge of websites to help them update their current one. He contacted them and is supposed to have discussed his needs (which are the same as mine) and come to an agreement. It then became apparent that there were 2 separate organisations which needed websites doing, under the same management and he asked if I wanted to do the other for them since I was also searching for something... Needing a placement myself I agreed, and went in thinking they understood I have been in touch with him and what is becoming apparent now is that he doesn't appear to have discussed with them the full details of our requirements prior to agreeing to undertake the work which might explain why they seem so clueless. icard

The assignment hasn't yet officially been handed out either. We were expecting it weeks ago but the uni has let us down yet again. We have only been told by our course leader howver the important stuff which is very unlikely to change. The basic requirements are that we need 150 hours of project based placement. We need to build evidence during that project and we need to work on 5 learning targets while we are there. One of mine is definitely going to be communication because even though I'm not the one who arranged this, I'm going to be the one to have to try to sort it out since I walked in blindly trusting things had already been discussed and the other guy is happily toddling along accepting everything they ask of him. icard

This is what I get for trusting that other students are capable of organising things properly. lol.

I will send an email to the people in charge asking what they know of our situation, and fill them in where necessary. If we can't reach an agreement I will just have to explain to them that there has been a misunderstanding and that I cannot help them after all. I simply cannot afford to spend weeks on something I cannot use for the course.

 

[DonAmiga]

Part of your evidence could be in the arrangement process and in how you went about finding the work! Marking a detailed estimate and contract for the client's to sign and you could have a checklist for them to sign off as its being completed which could build up your evidence pack. I also agree that if it's going to cost you £250 on expenses then I would be looking to fined something local or get any client to agree to pay expenses.

 

[AmiNeo]

If only it were that easy, when I was in last (on Tuesday) they literally chucked about 20 sheets of paper at me, each one a web page, sat down with me and started going through the content, crossing stuff off and writing corrections, told me to take it home and get working on it and then gave me a bunch of photos they want adding too :double. I tried to say that we need to redesign the bloody thing again before we can even think about adding content and new pages, then came the speech about me being able to get it done inside 3 days if I put the time in. To which I replied a pro would take 3 weeks minimum, for me you're looking at 3 months...

I'm having to learn ASP, PHP and Javascript in order to preserve their content management system which they've never used but paid through the arse for on top of this. (Which they had a good moan to me about having to pay for, even though it was 1/10th of the cost a pro web dev would have charged) I don't think they've even read the documentation the guy left explaining how to use it...


I've sent them an email explaining everything in reasonable terms as professionally as I can, if I get a negative response I'm getting out.

 

[Harrison]

Site content should no longer be the responsibility of the web developer unless it's a small static site. All you should be doing is designing and building a site template and configuration for a CMS. Any organization needing to regularly update their site's content need to use a CMS these days. They will need to add and amend site content regularly, scanning text and images. They need to face up to that being their responsibility, not yours.

When I start working with a client on any project I firstly get them to tell me what they want the site to look like. Examples of existing sites and features they like, . And what they want the site to achieve. I then ask them to go away and work on the site content. Create a list of the sections and pages they want,. And the content for each. Creating a word document containing it all. I can then get on with the site design and functionality of the site, using a couple pages poo f dummy content, or the initial pages of their draft content. I can then show them fictional mockups of the site until they are happy with the look and feel. Once that is signed off I can drop their content into it and job done.

The trick is to give the client their own work to do on the site content, so they will be writing about that and getting it done, whilst I can get on with the design and functionality of the site. Many clients try to demand seeing completed pages going up as they create the content.you have to explain it doesn't work like that.

At the end of the day they are getting your services for free. They are trying to take advantage,and no professional developer would put up with it. If they are taking the **** and putting unrealistic demands on you then don't put up with it. Tell them exactly what you are doing. Maybe list how you plan to build the site and submit it as a project schedule.if they refuse to accept it then walk. I'm sure their are plenty of other non profit organisations in real need of volunteers to make them a website and world not give the same hassles.

I'm a bit confused why you need to learn php and asp. They are to different server side languages to do the same thing. Asp isn't technically a language itself though. Most commonly people code in visual basic for asp, which is horrible. Give me php any day. And you really don't need to learn JavaScript. Just lookup and use some code as needed. You will learn and remember it more by being to find the code required as you go, rather then trying to learn a whole Lancashire b white you start. Learning by example is the best way.

Btw, Joomla is the most used, and the most updated CMS, with a huge community and dev support community, plus add-on components for anything you can think of. Best of all it's free. If they spent a lot of money on one they were ripped off.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[User1301]

Hi Amineo,

From my perspective (I'm an IT and Telecoms head of service for a company in Glasgow) you've found yourself in the common situation of being sold on a project which neither delivers what you expect it to or what the customer expects. There is scope creep all over the place and a differing of opinion on what the end goal is.

You could ask for a meeting to rebaseline what the project is (for their and your benefit):

Define the deliverables - what does the customer / charity actually want to achieve? I know they have a web site design already (and I use that term loosely given what you have said) but understanding why they want something and what they want it to achieve will give you the ammo to propose something that will fit the requirements. Might actually be the design they have given you - but more likely you'll be able to offer something more in line with what they are after.

Agree the Scope - Once you and the charity agree the deliverables - then you need to agree the scope. This should include the key components of how you will deliver the project; timescales and of course any requirements on them as the customer.

Manage expectations - the key thing about delivering a service is expectation management and communication. Once you have both agree the deliverables and the scope - then manage their expectations. If they ask for more stuff during the project - be very clear on the impact to the scope and therefore the deliverables.

Have a look at the attached - feel familiar?

Cheers

John

 

[AndyLandy]

Lots of good advice given here. I would also echo Harrison's comments about keeping strict separation between site infrastructure and site content. Create designs and layouts and content management systems, but don't get caught up in worrying about content, that's entirely their problem!

 

[RED IMPACT]

Typical client not knowing what they what or the time scale involved.

Like many have said - it would be a good time to get out.

Or - say you will do they site as per their spec from home and meet them with at a pre arranged date/time for updates and handover.

It should be on your terms as a freelancer not solely on the clients (as more often than not they haven't got a clue!

Just my 2p worth

 

[AmiNeo]

Hi Amineo,

From my perspective (I'm an IT and Telecoms head of service for a company in Glasgow) you've found yourself in the common situation of being sold on a project which neither delivers what you expect it to or what the customer expects. There is scope creep all over the place and a differing of opinion on what the end goal is.

You could ask for a meeting to rebaseline what the project is (for their and your benefit):

Define the deliverables - what does the customer / charity actually want to achieve? I know they have a web site design already (and I use that term loosely given what you have said) but understanding why they want something and what they want it to achieve will give you the ammo to propose something that will fit the requirements. Might actually be the design they have given you - but more likely you'll be able to offer something more in line with what they are after.

Agree the Scope - Once you and the charity agree the deliverables - then you need to agree the scope. This should include the key components of how you will deliver the project; timescales and of course any requirements on them as the customer.

Manage expectations - the key thing about delivering a service is expectation management and communication. Once you have both agree the deliverables and the scope - then manage their expectations. If they ask for more stuff during the project - be very clear on the impact to the scope and therefore the deliverables.

Have a look at the attached - feel familiar?

Cheers

John

Thanks for this.c
This is exactly how I would have gone about it given a chance. Perhaps not so structured being inexperienced but definitely, I would have had this kind of outline.
I unfortunately made the mistake of assuming the guy that set this up had fully explained all of the details first and they just needed someone else to do a separate one. I went in happy to help and it's only just become apparent that nothing has been explained as they've started piling stuff on expecting me to putt it out of thin air inside a week.

I have sent an email explaining what the situation is. That the guy who introduced me to them has obviously not gone about this properly and explained that I am sympathetic to their needs but they are expecting the impossible as things currently stand.
I stated that I simply do not have the time to spend on it if I can not use it for my course, especially given I'm on the second year of a degree and that I am unwilling to go further until we have a clear understanding of what is expected from one another.

I further went on to attach the course descriptor and highlight the key points I need to achieve as part of this, stating the work I will be having to do outside of the site itself evidencing planning and design stages, collecting feedback etc. I also pointed out that it needs to be a full 150 hours spent on a single project (ie, website), not 150 hours of random IT related stuff and that given much of this will need to be done in my own time, they must be willing to sign for time I put in outside of their premises.
I stated that I simply can not give them that amount of time they expect on site due to distance, expense and time constraints.

I went on to close with

Given the magnitude of this project and my requirements from the university, I simply can not do this overnight. If we can not find a work around for this then I regret to inform you that I must withdraw from the trust and find something closer to home.

She is conveniently away for the week, so I have not had a response back yet. Hopefully she will bother to check her emails at least once before she is back.

 

[User1301]

Seems the right thing to do. Hopefully they will come back to you with a more reasoned approach - but if not; wish you well and you can go on and get the work you need elsewhere.

Let me know how you get on please.

Cheers

John

 

[AmiNeo]

Seems the right thing to do. Hopefully they will come back to you with a more reasoned approach - but if not; wish you well and you can go on and get the work you need elsewhere.

Let me know how you get on please.

Cheers

John

Just had a voicemail left for me from them today. They apologised and stated that it hadn't been explained to them what our requirements were before hand and it is agreed on both sides that we should go back to the beginning.

If we can't negotiate anything reasonable, I will be pulling out.

 

[User1301]

Nice one hope it works out for you!

J

 

[thecellartroll]

Well done!

Hopefully now you can negotiate properly with them and get what you actually need out of your "free" labour as well as them getting their website. Remember to include the initial fumbling in your write-ups - shows your ability to turn around a difficult working situation; bloody important in the real world!