My rule-of-thumb is "How heavy is it?". I have a backup Kickstart 3.1 ROM which I use for testing. Said EPROM is ceramic and pretty hefty. For completed machine builds, I acquire genuine ROMs, which are plastic and lightweight. I'm not sure if this actually stands up (One presumes programmable plastic package EEPROMs might exist that will fit a miggy)
Ebay Seller or Scammer?
- Thread starter Tajmaster
- Start date
- Replies 37
- Views 1164
My rule-of-thumb is "How heavy is it?". I have a backup Kickstart 3.1 ROM which I use for testing. Said EPROM is ceramic and pretty hefty. For completed machine builds, I acquire genuine ROMs, which are plastic and lightweight. I'm not sure if this actually stands up (One presumes programmable plastic package EEPROMs might exist that will fit a miggy)
Amiga Technologies did not ever use white disks for their release of 3.1 - which is the design pictured by the seller.
In 1994 Villagetronic handled distribution of OS 3.1 as Commodore were going through Chapter 11 at the time. They did not use EEPROMs but OTPs.
Read through the seller's puchase history, consider why buyers are marked as private identities.
Since this thread has been published on Amibay, he has sold all 16 units.
Consider: why does it cost us the same price to source Amiga Technlogies AmigaOS disk sets (which are very limited in supply these days) as this seller charges for both the disk set and ROMs?
AFAIK, the only recent seller of DSDD disks was us. We were selling new white disks until recently.
In 1994 Villagetronic handled distribution of OS 3.1 as Commodore were going through Chapter 11 at the time. They did not use EEPROMs but OTPs.
Read through the seller's puchase history, consider why buyers are marked as private identities.
Since this thread has been published on Amibay, he has sold all 16 units.
Consider: why does it cost us the same price to source Amiga Technlogies AmigaOS disk sets (which are very limited in supply these days) as this seller charges for both the disk set and ROMs?
AFAIK, the only recent seller of DSDD disks was us. We were selling new white disks until recently.
@AmigaKit
My thanks for your response, it certainly clears up some ambiguity.
As far as I know I don't believe that this matter was reported directly to the staff, in all fairness I believe that TajMaster was only trying to help a fellow member and, like a lot of us on here, none-the-wiser as to what is actually legitimate and what isn't.
Unfortunately at best we can only hope to inform those members that have bought goods that they have likely purchased counterfeit goods. In this regard, those members should report this to eBay and the police. As a distributor of legitimate goods, I would suggest that you do the same, in fact it would hold more weight perhaps than just us end users complaining.
It might be an opportunity for yourself, vesalia.de and some of the other smaller distributors coming together and protecting your investments in such a manner, as there are a lot of this type of sale on eBay.
Unfortunately, In terms of pricing structure of items we are not here to comment or in fact query upon them, arguably the members here do not have privy to your bottom line of cost V's profit on items, as such people are left to believe what they want to believe - I hope here we can establish what is a legitimate product, and what is counterfeit, with our fellow members armed with this knowledge, things like this wont happen again.
I can only ask in the future that as an authority in such matters, when a concern is found please contact the staff, for the sake of our fellow members so that they don't get fleeced with counterfeit goods.
My thanks for your response, it certainly clears up some ambiguity.
As far as I know I don't believe that this matter was reported directly to the staff, in all fairness I believe that TajMaster was only trying to help a fellow member and, like a lot of us on here, none-the-wiser as to what is actually legitimate and what isn't.
Unfortunately at best we can only hope to inform those members that have bought goods that they have likely purchased counterfeit goods. In this regard, those members should report this to eBay and the police. As a distributor of legitimate goods, I would suggest that you do the same, in fact it would hold more weight perhaps than just us end users complaining.
It might be an opportunity for yourself, vesalia.de and some of the other smaller distributors coming together and protecting your investments in such a manner, as there are a lot of this type of sale on eBay.
Unfortunately, In terms of pricing structure of items we are not here to comment or in fact query upon them, arguably the members here do not have privy to your bottom line of cost V's profit on items, as such people are left to believe what they want to believe - I hope here we can establish what is a legitimate product, and what is counterfeit, with our fellow members armed with this knowledge, things like this wont happen again.
I can only ask in the future that as an authority in such matters, when a concern is found please contact the staff, for the sake of our fellow members so that they don't get fleeced with counterfeit goods.
Hey Zeets,
No I didn't report the matter any further since I since several people including a member of site staff said I was in the wrong.
I did mean to mention it to you on the phone mate, but we didnt get to have that chat yet
Steve.
No I didn't report the matter any further since I since several people including a member of site staff said I was in the wrong.
I did mean to mention it to you on the phone mate, but we didnt get to have that chat yet
Steve.
From a legal standpoint, we should report this seller to Cloanto (the legal owners of the kickstart copyright) as they would be interested in conducting their own official investigation into the legality of the roms this seller has just sold. They would also be interested in preventing him from continuing to sell them for profit, as he has been.
Also by ebay rules, only the legal copyright owner of something can launch a complaint against an ebay member to stop them selling an item that infringes their licenses, so Cloanto would need to contact ebay directly about this.
@Amigakit. Do you hold any copyright agreements for the sale of kickstart roms and disks? Or do you only work by acquiring old stock to sell to customers, therefore not needing such agreements?
Also by ebay rules, only the legal copyright owner of something can launch a complaint against an ebay member to stop them selling an item that infringes their licenses, so Cloanto would need to contact ebay directly about this.
@Amigakit. Do you hold any copyright agreements for the sale of kickstart roms and disks? Or do you only work by acquiring old stock to sell to customers, therefore not needing such agreements?
@ thread
Somebody at least clue the rest of us in on who it is so we can avoid him/her/it.
[Edit]
Thank you oh mysterious person who told me via PM - most appreciated
Somebody at least clue the rest of us in on who it is so we can avoid him/her/it.
[Edit]
Thank you oh mysterious person who told me via PM - most appreciated
Last edited:
@bankie
This is about an eBay trader that is selling alleged counterfeit goods of -
3.1 Kickstart for A500/500+/A600/A2000
A 6 disk set of Workbench 3.1
I found the original thread as a fall out on EAB, alas these things do happen, I don't believe for one minute that any foul play by any of the members here, the link to this seller was meant in good faith and in the spirit of the community to help our fellows, I respect the sentiment behind it =).
Unfortunately when investigating the seller, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that these items are indeed counterfeit, as such I believe this is enought for me to removed the link. Should you feel inclined my friend you can still search on eBay for "Workbench 3.1" and I am sure you will find the matter of discussion.
AmigaKit has confirmed that only OTP (One Time Programmable) programmable chips have been used officially and that was by Villagetronic in 1994. This means that anyone selling Kickstarts on UV-EPROM as originals are either misinformed as to their illegitimate origins or trying to pass on counterfeit goods.
The Workbench disk set is also a point of contention as not only has the seller been purchasing Disk labels and UV-EPROM's. While Workbench came on a variety of Disk colours, there are specific colours associated with specific labels, as such the labels are incorrect with the disk colour as Amiga Technologies labels were not released on white disks.
@Fitzsteve
My friend there is no one blame here, these types of thread happen, I am in all truth shocked something like this hasn't happened sooner. It is inevitable, as AmiBay grows and joins the communities tighter together these problems will (and have) become more apparent. It is how we as a community deal with these that really matters.
@Harrison
In good conscience we should inform Mike from cloanto, as this does effect his legitimate business in a small way. It would be fair to say that it does to all vendors of legitimate firmware and software.
In this particular case, the matter here is a case of Fraud, as the seller is allegedly attempting to pass-off goods as legitimate, as such this is criminal matter not a civil one and should be reported to the police.
In Brief
Now, I would like to say there is a lot of conjecture and circumstantial evidence, as such this would require a proper investigation that outside the remit of AmiBay and can only legally be conducted by a police investigator or other investigatory service.
The Sums of money here might be low, at approximately £300 per batch of 20 Kickstart ROM's / Workbench Disk sets, however counterfeiting and fraud are very serious crimes. I am pretty sure the eBay seller has no idea what criminal prosecution selling counterfeit goods can bring down on them.
From here, a sample of their product should be purchased, the seller should then be queried, from this eBay should be informed and then the police should be informed. As conscientious citizens we can report a suspected fraud, however that is a limit of our involvement as we are not directly effected or are a part of the procurement of these alleged counterfeit items.
click here on how to report a fraud
As a point of note, for each item sold, it will count as an independent case of fraud, so if the alleged counterfeit items of the last batch of 20 have all been sold - this will be 20 cases of fraud against the seller.
Fraud is nothing to be shrugged at, as under the Fraud Act 2006, each case can receive up to 10 years of imprisonment - I would say this crap just got serious.
In Contrast
Had an eBay seller just wrote on the disks with ink and stuck a label over a programmable ROM, this would be a case of copyright infringement, which is a civil matter and would need to be taken to civil court by the original rights holder.
While I believe that Mike has a distribution license, I don't believe that Cloanto hold the rights to go-after someone in court... the current rights holder (Amiga.inc) would have the privilege of that court duty.
however as we are a friendly community it wouldn't hurt to inform Cloanto.
This is about an eBay trader that is selling alleged counterfeit goods of -
3.1 Kickstart for A500/500+/A600/A2000
A 6 disk set of Workbench 3.1
I found the original thread as a fall out on EAB, alas these things do happen, I don't believe for one minute that any foul play by any of the members here, the link to this seller was meant in good faith and in the spirit of the community to help our fellows, I respect the sentiment behind it =).
Unfortunately when investigating the seller, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that these items are indeed counterfeit, as such I believe this is enought for me to removed the link. Should you feel inclined my friend you can still search on eBay for "Workbench 3.1" and I am sure you will find the matter of discussion.
AmigaKit has confirmed that only OTP (One Time Programmable) programmable chips have been used officially and that was by Villagetronic in 1994. This means that anyone selling Kickstarts on UV-EPROM as originals are either misinformed as to their illegitimate origins or trying to pass on counterfeit goods.
The Workbench disk set is also a point of contention as not only has the seller been purchasing Disk labels and UV-EPROM's. While Workbench came on a variety of Disk colours, there are specific colours associated with specific labels, as such the labels are incorrect with the disk colour as Amiga Technologies labels were not released on white disks.
@Fitzsteve
My friend there is no one blame here, these types of thread happen, I am in all truth shocked something like this hasn't happened sooner. It is inevitable, as AmiBay grows and joins the communities tighter together these problems will (and have) become more apparent. It is how we as a community deal with these that really matters.
@Harrison
In good conscience we should inform Mike from cloanto, as this does effect his legitimate business in a small way. It would be fair to say that it does to all vendors of legitimate firmware and software.
In this particular case, the matter here is a case of Fraud, as the seller is allegedly attempting to pass-off goods as legitimate, as such this is criminal matter not a civil one and should be reported to the police.
In Brief
Now, I would like to say there is a lot of conjecture and circumstantial evidence, as such this would require a proper investigation that outside the remit of AmiBay and can only legally be conducted by a police investigator or other investigatory service.
The Sums of money here might be low, at approximately £300 per batch of 20 Kickstart ROM's / Workbench Disk sets, however counterfeiting and fraud are very serious crimes. I am pretty sure the eBay seller has no idea what criminal prosecution selling counterfeit goods can bring down on them.
From here, a sample of their product should be purchased, the seller should then be queried, from this eBay should be informed and then the police should be informed. As conscientious citizens we can report a suspected fraud, however that is a limit of our involvement as we are not directly effected or are a part of the procurement of these alleged counterfeit items.
click here on how to report a fraud
As a point of note, for each item sold, it will count as an independent case of fraud, so if the alleged counterfeit items of the last batch of 20 have all been sold - this will be 20 cases of fraud against the seller.
Fraud is nothing to be shrugged at, as under the Fraud Act 2006, each case can receive up to 10 years of imprisonment - I would say this crap just got serious.
In Contrast
Had an eBay seller just wrote on the disks with ink and stuck a label over a programmable ROM, this would be a case of copyright infringement, which is a civil matter and would need to be taken to civil court by the original rights holder.
While I believe that Mike has a distribution license, I don't believe that Cloanto hold the rights to go-after someone in court... the current rights holder (Amiga.inc) would have the privilege of that court duty.
however as we are a friendly community it wouldn't hurt to inform Cloanto.
specialK
New member
the moment this tread was posted and i followed the link i thought to myself the same thing, "watch how quickly he will sell all of them..."
obviously there is a market for these things.
Which begs the question, why don't the current license holders start to product some more? There is a definitely market for 3.1 roms and disk sets and they would make some money from the licenses they hold. They could even license it out to others interested in selling them, such as Amigakit.
This would remove the need for sellers like this, who are currently able to sell these copied versions due to demand and a lack of originals.
This would remove the need for sellers like this, who are currently able to sell these copied versions due to demand and a lack of originals.
Amiga Technologies (fortunately for us) manufactured many original Mask ROMs (3.1) which we sell for the A1200 and A4000(T)
They also manufactured many 3.1 disk sets (unsold stock) which we are selling through - they will of course sell out one day and we will need to license a new production run from Hyperion, who now have the rights to distribute 3.1. At this point, it would also be nice to fix a lot of the 3.1 quirks and modern incompatibilities to make it a better product for our Classic Amigas. When you see the great work that people such as PeterK are doing patching the icon.library, it is inspiring to distribute a higher quality product.
They also manufactured many 3.1 disk sets (unsold stock) which we are selling through - they will of course sell out one day and we will need to license a new production run from Hyperion, who now have the rights to distribute 3.1. At this point, it would also be nice to fix a lot of the 3.1 quirks and modern incompatibilities to make it a better product for our Classic Amigas. When you see the great work that people such as PeterK are doing patching the icon.library, it is inspiring to distribute a higher quality product.
It definitely would be brilliant to see an official updated "pached/fixed" release of 3.1. maybe even called 3.2? The fixed files exist for it to happen, so it would just take the correct licensing to allow its production. Would be great.
Hi,
Just like to add, the only other "off colour" disks I ever saw were grey and that was 2.05 with my A600 way back in 1992.
Unfortunately those none the wiser will be taken in and assume pirate copies are genuine (much like back in 1992!!).
Support genuine sellers, simples.
@Amigakit
I know you need to keep costs down, but how much would it cost to stencil the slides? Everyone else does it on disks.
Just like to add, the only other "off colour" disks I ever saw were grey and that was 2.05 with my A600 way back in 1992.
Unfortunately those none the wiser will be taken in and assume pirate copies are genuine (much like back in 1992!!).
Support genuine sellers, simples.
@Amigakit
I know you need to keep costs down, but how much would it cost to stencil the slides? Everyone else does it on disks.
Great idea but only release the upgrade discs and not the original 3.1 set. Maybe in the style of a PD disc, with the consent of all involved of course
specialK
New member
HI,
Fantastic idea. A panel of experienced programmers and users should be assembled in order to draw up a plan of new\updated ROMs and disks.
Some aspects of the planning should be presented to the community, things such as the design of the labels, suggestions which should be included etc.
Final product should be sold through as many outlets as possible, Amigakit, ebay store and forums like this one.
ALso in order to stay profitable a set price should be agreed upon, we all have to be true to ourselves and agree on a price that we are willing to pay but a price that will give a return to the producers in order to entice them to be and to support the Amiga community.
The set price should be across all of the places the package is sold at and should be supported.
I for example would really support and purchase there new ROMs and disks for all of my Amigas, 500, 500plus, 1200, 3000, 4000, CDTV and CD32
LEt's do this, let's beat the pirates and support the Amiga! AS a community we can and we should.
Marcin.
Fantastic idea. A panel of experienced programmers and users should be assembled in order to draw up a plan of new\updated ROMs and disks.
Some aspects of the planning should be presented to the community, things such as the design of the labels, suggestions which should be included etc.
Final product should be sold through as many outlets as possible, Amigakit, ebay store and forums like this one.
ALso in order to stay profitable a set price should be agreed upon, we all have to be true to ourselves and agree on a price that we are willing to pay but a price that will give a return to the producers in order to entice them to be and to support the Amiga community.
The set price should be across all of the places the package is sold at and should be supported.
I for example would really support and purchase there new ROMs and disks for all of my Amigas, 500, 500plus, 1200, 3000, 4000, CDTV and CD32
LEt's do this, let's beat the pirates and support the Amiga! AS a community we can and we should.
Marcin.
tokyoracer
(Not actually from Tokyo).
I got nothing much against it in the sence that they are getting harder and harder to get hold of and may well run out altogether (unless Hyperion can do something about it). For me the issue is people making money off it and I can honestly say is isn't just this guy, I have even witnessed at-least 1 active member of this forum that actually does the same and also probably makes money off it too which is disgraceful to be honest.
It is my hope, and perhaps a long standing wish, that should we be offered updated Official Kickrom's that would be an amazing thing to come out of something like this.
While I am not PPC fanboi, if Hyperion can deliver then thats a +1e (infinitely) more than Amiga.stinc
While I am not PPC fanboi, if Hyperion can deliver then thats a +1e (infinitely) more than Amiga.stinc
