The Commodore brand may be coming back!

[everblue]

What about MiSTress 1200? (also what compatibility issues MiSTer FPGA core have?)
https://www.8bits4ever.net/product-page/mistress-1200

That will make it very expensive. It would be much cheaper, for example to partner with Heber ( https://shop.heber.co.uk/shop-all/mister-multisystem/ ) and ask them to design a MiSTEr based motherboard in a shape that would fit the A1200, with all the extra Amiga related ports of course (such as RGB15khz, joystick/mouse connector, external drive, etc.).

Regarding incompatibility, I don't know the exact details except that it is not very accurate. I believe there are issues with the Turrican remake (the one with the PC VGA garphics), also when I play Shadow Dancer on MiSTer using Amiga Vision, in A1200, when the main character sprite jumps it glitches.

 

[everblue]

I will be happy if they just make CRTs

Good luck with that! Pretty much no one can make CRTs any more.

 

[YouKnowWho]

That will make it very expensive. It would be much cheaper, for example to partner with Heber ( https://shop.heber.co.uk/shop-all/mister-multisystem/ ) and ask them to design a MiSTEr based motherboard in a shape that would fit the A1200, with all the extra Amiga related ports of course (such as RGB15khz, joystick/mouse connector, external drive, etc.).

Regarding incompatibility, I don't know the exact details except that it is not very accurate. I believe there are issues with the Turrican remake (the one with the PC VGA garphics), also when I play Shadow Dancer on MiSTer using Amiga Vision, in A1200, when the main character sprite jumps it glitches.

Retro Games Ltd. never did an FPGA product, I don't think they will start now. For starters, it will cost more than not-FPGA.

I'm betting they go ARM with software emulation, like every other product they released so far. Possibly something with a bit more juice than the Dual-Core Cortex-A7 ARM CPU and a Mali400 MP2 GPU that is in the C64Mini.

 

[miggymad]

At the end of the day, who cares what chip it uses -arm, FPGA, whatever ... As long as the darn thing works

 

[everblue]

Retro Games Ltd. never did an FPGA product, I don't think they will start now. For starters, it will cost more than not-FPGA.

I'm betting they go ARM with software emulation, like every other product they released so far. Possibly something with a bit more juice than the Dual-Core Cortex-A7 ARM CPU and a Mali400 MP2 GPU that is in the C64Mini.

Ah sorry, I meant Perifractic. C64 Ultimate is FPGA, and I’m hoping that one day they will make an FPGA version of the Amiga 1200.

 

[everblue]

At the end of the day, who cares what chip it uses -arm, FPGA, whatever ... As long as the darn thing works

Because there’s a difference between working and working well! Jokes apart, FPGA brings more to the table but is more expensive and for this kind of thing manufacturers tend to go for the cheapest option.

 

[YouKnowWho]

At the end of the day, who cares what chip it uses -arm, FPGA, whatever ... As long as the darn thing works

I care. Why hand over money for a software emulation on ARM? I'm on a computer right now, it can run software emulation just fine.

To me (and I think most here would agree) it is all about the original hardware. FPGA is different to me because the ICs are reproduced in the logic cells of a chip - hardware. Accuracy, latency, it's all better. So the convenience of many machines inside one, I can overlook some short comings. Hence MISTer DE-10 Nano is A-OK with me.

Software emulation...that's for file transfer as far as I'm concerned. Oh sure, a quick MAME game. Some may tolerate the price. For me? Maybe $50 CAD for a C64Mini - OK, for the novelty and joystick. But Retro Games Ltd. wants £399 for software emulation of Amiga 1200 - Do they even know how much real custom AGA chipset & 68K actual 1200 sells for?

 

[miggymad]

@YouKnowWho

Similar arguments were on-going when Amugakit announced the birth of their A600GS and A1290NG. I think thier sales figures speak volumes with the end user welcoming them both with open arms. As they no doubt will when this new A1200 becomes available.

Personally, it doesn't matter if emulation, real, etc ... It's all Amiga to me and it's all good

 

[everblue]

@YouKnowWho

Similar arguments were on-going when Amugakit announced the birth of their A600GS and A1290NG. I think thier sales figures speak volumes with the end user welcoming them both with open arms. As they no doubt will when this new A1200 becomes available.

Personally, it doesn't matter if emulation, real, etc ... It's all Amiga to me and it's all good

Not all the end users are the same I guess. I never bought a non FPGA based "new retro" system, never will. But yes, if its cheaper, it will sell more

 

[Watson]

FPGA simulation is still not the real hardware. Although, if one was to put a DE10 nano in an Amiga case and run it side by side real hardware, would you see any difference, quite possibly not. I think the true test would be a blind test, where the user would not know which machine was the real hardware and fpga

Most would argue the same cannot be said for emulation.

All this talk of fpga is getting me started again - stop it!

 

[YouKnowWho]

@Watson, the math is simple to me and no one will convince me otherwise.

Real Amiga (OCS/ECS/AGA chipset) + 68K CPU > FPGA > Software emulation.

The fact that the IC chip logic of original hardware and custom chipsets is manifested into existence inside a dedicated 110,000 logic cell FPGA chip in the DE10 Nano to turn that FPGA chip into the actual hardware simply means that today, if real hardware is not available or not an option, FPGA is the next best thing to it. Easily superior to software.

But it ain't the real deal.

 

[comraider]

Although, if one was to put a DE10 nano in an Amiga case and run it side by side real hardware, would you see any difference, quite possibly not.

Interesting point.. I think a completely 1:1 copy of the motherboard, including all the ports and their functionality, would be needed for me to consider an FPGA recreation to be functionally on par with the real thing. Otherwise you're still missing something that the original offered. It still wouldn't be the same, but I'd be able to overlook it at least.

Software emulation, no way.. I already have PCs or Amithlon that can do that just fine. But that's not an Amiga.

 

[dwaco]

Real Amiga (OCS/ECS/AGA chipset) + 68K CPU > FPGA > Software emulation.

...

But it ain't the real deal.

While this is entirely true, and it is very, maybe even the most important aspect for the most of Amibay users, it is not everything and not for all. For many, a finished product they can buy in the store/online is more important. The one they can connect to modern display without all that scan doublers, OSSCs and RetroThinks. The one that has warranty. Nice box. The one you don't need to find spare parts for because something failed in transit. Which just works.

I am happy with my real C128 and A1200 and other machines.

But if it wasn't all breadbin, C64 for me in some future could be from commodore.net.

And to scratch that nostalgia of one specific year of my life, I won't be buying real PDP-11. PiDP-11, on the other hand, could be... Blinking lights, RSX-11M and all... RPi inside won't make it significantly worse than a real one.

 

[comraider]

While this is entirely true, and it is very, maybe even the most important aspect for the most of Amibay users, it is not everything and not for all. For many, a finished product they can buy in the store/online is more important. The one they can connect to modern display without all that scan doublers, OSSCs and RetroThinks. The one that has warranty. Nice box. The one you don't need to find spare parts for because something failed in transit. Which just works.

There's some truth to this.. but isn't the market for these products people like Amibay users? (retro enthusiasts). The average consumer isn't going to go out and buy one. If they just want a quick game of Epyx Summer Games to remember their youth, the c64 mini fills that gap.

 

[dwaco]

There's some truth to this.. but isn't the market for these products people like Amibay users? (retro enthusiasts). The average consumer isn't going to go out and buy one. If they just want a quick game of Epyx Summer Games to remember their youth, the c64 mini fills that gap.

One thing I was trying to say is that there are different levels. How hard-core you are in being retro enthusiast. Even different levels could be in one person for different things, which I was trying to demonstrate.

Also retro enthusiast is likely to have many systems and some emulated or fpga ones could be on one's shelf for convenience.

Sure, for many cases c64 mini should be great, so commodore.net does have competition. But 'average consumer' still can buy a better product if they feel it. With keyboard and lights, backed by cool youtuber etc. Gold edition looks to be a cool gift to granddad who was telling tales about that computer they had in their youth.

I would consider it, if it was in C64C case instead of breadbin or something modern entirely.

 

[YouKnowWho]

@comraider - Overall, the majority of FPGA MISTer users don't need these ports. So, do you force 95% to pay for a feature 5% really need/want? I understand that compromises exist on a MISTer DE10 Nano and agree with you. They are offset by some lovely FPGA perks and benefits. The board you request is possible, but no one seems to believe there is a market out there to justify it.

@dwaco - why not just run software emulation on your nice new laptop? To me, these software emulation devices are weak. I mean...software is out there, free, proven, refined. Plenty of options for every OS. Why would I pay a fat premium for another piece of hardware just to run a piece of software emulation? I know people will buy it, because people buy all kinds of weird stuff - myself included but all these software emulation and limited FPGA efforts to me are just like cheap watch replicas. Hey, people buy plenty of those!

Real Hardware OR NOT Real Hardware
It all fits neatly into one of these two categories. Choose accordingly.

 

[Sardine]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

Nostalgia is fogged glasses.

What you remember is not exactly how it was.

I remember all the fun i had playing certain games on my C64. What i don’t remember is buying tape azimuth kit being fedup trying to load rambo for the 5th time. Not being able to afford a 1541 or know anyone else with one when i was 15 more than the cost of the c64 at the time.

Games where HARD and very unforgiving i remember them being “easier”

What i would like is a fairly accurate representation ( i have a c64 maxi, mist , mister and a real c64 breadbin with 1541 and im just too scared to plug it in or even try the 30+ yr old discs on a display that still supports svhs or composite)

The new fpga c64 is a perfect compromise not a cheap arm emulator nor a perfect hardware recreation but very close to instantly load a game without errors or the wait.

Being of the older generation I’m leaning towards convenience rather than the “authentic” experience i just can’t be bothered dragging out a full kit, c64 complete setup with crt for it to fight me. I want one small box that just works outa the box no fuzz no drama not taking over the kitchen table pulling a muscle lifting it all. Hdmi and all my peripherals even the ones i couldn’t afford ( turbo speed and ram expansion etc ) all built in.

It’s a personal choice but i would prefer convenience and reliability over authentic bugs/drama and frustration in my “Fun” time.

 

[Amiga Forever]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

Nostalgia is fogged glasses.

What you remember is not exactly how it was.

I remember all the fun i had playing certain games on my C64. What i don’t remember is buying tape azimuth kit being fedup trying to load rambo for the 5th time. Not being able to afford a 1541 or know anyone else with one when i was 15 more than the cost of the c64 at the time.

Games where HARD and very unforgiving i remember them being “easier”

What i would like is a fairly accurate representation ( i have a c64 maxi, mist , mister and a real c64 breadbin with 1541 and im just too scared to plug it in or even try the 30+ yr old discs on a display that still supports svhs or composite)

The new fpga c64 is a perfect compromise not a cheap arm emulator nor a perfect hardware recreation but very close to instantly load a game without errors or the wait.

Being of the older generation I’m leaning towards convenience rather than the “authentic” experience i just can’t be bothered dragging out a full kit, c64 complete setup with crt for it to fight me. I want one small box that just works outa the box no fuzz no drama not taking over the kitchen table pulling a muscle lifting it all. Hdmi and all my peripherals even the ones i couldn’t afford ( turbo speed and ram expansion etc ) all built in.

It’s a personal choice but i would prefer convenience and reliability over authentic bugs/drama and frustration in my “Fun” time.

You have nailed it and Excellent Points

 

[YouKnowWho]

@Sardine - damn it, I like reading your posts, especially when you reminisce nostalgically.

I agree. Half of these are probably selling to people who want a flashback. All those console efforts proved there is a market. NES/SNES were software emulators, right?

I agree with you about the convenience. But what's more convenient than a MacBook Air laptop running all the software emulations? It's portable, pretty, functional, and emulators are all "included". At some point one has to make a call. If you have the original set up, and an FPGA, software running on ARM CPU is the game changer of CONvenience at this point?

Everyone is different. I'm struggling with addiction personally and can't get into single digits of Amigas. We all collect. Some want convenience. Some want nostalgic looks. Some want anything Commodore. I want function and authenticity, first and foremost. It's not impossible to get a C64 up today. It's easy actually. A real one. A new one. A vintage one. To me real is always the starting point. Once I start compromising on real, what's in it for me is the question. And as you've pointed out, many of us have different answers to that question.

Also....Games where HARD and very unforgiving i remember them being “easier”

I've noticed, most games have no endings now. Can't finish them. The goal is to keep players engaged endlessly. Some punish them with a time-out if they quit or walk away. Dynamic Game Difficulty Balancing is running wild. Perhaps that's why we feel the young kids are getting soft. Games were hard, and didn't get easier just because you can't pass it. It was an achievement to pass a game. Perhaps we've been infected with this game difficult balancing and aren't the players we used to be. Soft.

 

[dwaco]

why not just run software emulation on your nice new laptop? To me, these software emulation devices are weak. I mean...software is out there, free, proven, refined. Plenty of options for every OS. Why would I pay a fat premium for another piece of hardware just to run a piece of software emulation? I know people will buy it, because people buy all kinds of weird stuff - myself included but all these software emulation and limited FPGA efforts to me are just like cheap watch replicas. Hey, people buy plenty of those!

Real Hardware OR NOT Real Hardware
It all fits neatly into one of these two categories. Choose accordingly.

Don't get me wrong, I sure prefer (and have) real.

I am just offering alternative thoughts.

You could have different circumstances:

- You want some form of a present to someone. C64 mini looking great compared to MacBook Air. Real C64 is an involvement.
- You want PDP-11 blinking lights in your room. MacBook Air with youtube video? Real one, but do you have Dave's connections, resources and spacey garage for it? PiDP-11 though...
- You want Commodore 65 experience. Mega 65 looking good, good luck finding real prototype. MacBook Air? Try inserting 3.5" floppy into that.
- You already have real C64 or C128 and then you want ultimate cart and dual real SID. C64 Ultimate starts looking good. Good luck finding SIDFX. MacBook Air?
- You need something for partying. Wanna bring your real C64 or MacBook Air? C64 mini is a reasonable throw-away choice.

The fact that we even have the reason for such discussion is great! You have multiple options, pick one for your budget, problem handling capacity and situation.

Someone who gets c64 mini as a present might want more and will get/fix/enjoy a real one in the end.