Vampire 600 V2 - Amiga 600 FPGA accelerator Pre-order

[hapygallagher]

majsta I noticed a mention of you getting an A4000 for future development, any chance you'll be working on an A3000/4000 version in the near future?

I think majsta should stick with A600 only as some sort of punishment to those dic... ehm people who voted A600 as the worst Amiga ever in numerous polls

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=60102&page=11

mostly entitled A1200/3000/4000 users if you check carefully

I vote Amiga 600 as the worst Amiga ever! I will vote for that and again and again an again and again if I have too. Just because a Vampire 600 will be released doesn't negate that Amiga 600 is the worst Amiga ever developed in human history and there is nothing you or Majsta can do to defer me from my believe that Amiga 600 is the worst Amiga ever made.

omg lets please not turn this into a which amiga is better thread. The model you choose to own is a preference, based on personal taste (or luck), there's nothing wrong with other people liking a different model. We're all amiga owners

 

[trydowave]

I owned an A500 and my mum brought an A600 after. I used it when I visited and saw no real problem with the machine. Relokick sorted out the compatibility issues and I always thought it looked cute. To be honest I was more confused about the A500+ release?
As for the most useless Amiga. I pick the CDTV but I don't hate any of them.

Anwyays.... cant wait for the Vampire... Really hope it ships soon

 

[eXeler0]

I think the project is experiencing a bit of "feature creep" but for good reasons IMO.
It may take a bit longer than planned but the final product eill be much better and more useful that when it was originally announced in this thread.

I think the latest changed feature (increasing the amount of RAM) comes from the discussions on the Apollo core forums about software development. One example is that its very hard to write modern software with tight RAM limits. (Like porting a fairly modern web browser etc).
I dont know how much RAM the new version will have but 128 or 256MB is probably a valid guess.

Anyhoo, in Amigaland, we live in another timezone so product delays are nothing to get worried about ;-)

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[IanP]

I think the increase in the amount of ram is more to do with maximising the performance of the Apollo core. The extra ram chip will allow the memory to be configured to increase the maximum bandwidth available to the core if all goes to plan.

 

[AmigaDave]

I think the increase in the amount of ram is more to do with maximising the performance of the Apollo core. The extra ram chip will allow the memory to be configured to increase the maximum bandwidth available to the core if all goes to plan.

I admit that I have not read all 33 pages of this thread, so forgive me if this question has already been asked and answered.

Will the increased performance of the Apollo core and the Vampire board (plus future accelerator boards for other Amiga models) allow something like a port of the Odyssey web browser to run on AmigaOS3.1 - 3.9? Has anyone contacted the creator of Odyssey/OWB for MorphOS to ask about this possibility? I think that the bounty paid to Open Source Odyssey, so the source should now be available.

I am hoping that when the Apollo core is finally released, it will spur the porting and/or creation of new software for AmigaOS3.x, that was not previously possible with currently available accelerators.

 

[eXeler0]

I admit that I have not read all 33 pages of this thread, so forgive me if this question has already been asked and answered.

Will the increased performance of the Apollo core and the Vampire board (plus future accelerator boards for other Amiga models) allow something like a port of the Odyssey web browser to run on AmigaOS3.1 - 3.9? Has anyone contacted the creator of Odyssey/OWB for MorphOS to ask about this possibility? I think that the bounty paid to Open Source Odyssey, so the source should now be available.

I am hoping that when the Apollo core is finally released, it will spur the porting and/or creation of new software for AmigaOS3.x, that was not previously possible with currently available accelerators.

There was a discussion going on at the Apollo-Core forums about various browsers, I think Odyssey was mentioned too. Unfortunately, the forum got wiped a couple of days ago so I cant direct you there. But the general feel was that modern browsers gobble up a whole lot of memory. And adding just 64MB to the Apollo (which is meant to outperform all 68k CPUs know to man), seemed a bit tight regardless really... As I understand it, the original decision to add 64MB was due to a hardware design decision, not really a consideration about what amount of RAM would be needed to get interesting ports going... In fairness, the Apollo has grown beyond what was originally planned, so it might be also seen as "64MB was fine for the old FPGA/core, but better CPU needs/deserves more RAM".

 

[A500DaBest]

In full honesty, even a 128 MB RAM is not enough to run OWB or allow for lots ports to the system. If we are indeed looking to use this new technology to use OWB to it's fullest and have lots of applicable ports the first step is to give the user at least 1 GB of RAM. But let us not go there...this is an accelerator and nothing more. I say, we should just wait for all the Vampire series to be finished and ask for a new stand alone Amiga motherboard that uses new hardware technology, talking in Ghz for CPU speed, GBs in RAM, build in USB, Ethernet, Audio, etc that supersede the classic hardware's limitation.

In my believe, Vampire's real objective is to be the best accelerator not the new Amiga classic. Also the biggest goal is to break the monopoly on the market and compete against these outdated accelerators that cost a fortune with a the top of the line accelerator that only cost couple of hundred bucks. I also believe Vampire should unite all the different Amiga models as one system so that there will be no more difference between with any of the models except one is 16 bit and the other is 32 bit...but when it comes to graphics they all use AGA and SAGA and have internet support.

If this actually does happen...then there will never be needing another accelerator in history and all of those RTG cards, accelerators, etc will be replaced with one small tiny card called Vampire.

Then the next plan is to make a complete stand alone Amiga that have the same hardware specs as x86 or close to it.

 

[eXeler0]

@A500DaBeast There have been Amigas running at 1GHz+ for a long time now, and the OS has been developed for it. The AmigaOne x5000 looks like a capable machine.
But if you're talking about a glorious future for the 68k architecture...

The Vampire is not a magical CPU. Being a reimplementation of the 68k architecture, it has some limits for how fast it can run etc. And even if you could bump it up to 1GHz, whats next? Doing 64-bit extensions to the 68k? And SIMD instructions? Its also "trapped" inside an FPGA, never being to able to break out of its limits.
Im not saying its theoretically impossible, but It makes very little sense in about every other respect ;-)
If the Vampire eventually delivers the equivalent of a 500MHz 060 it will still be stuck in the past. Compared to the latest CPUs, it would still only reach a couple % of the performance.
This is a CPU for old skool efficient times when coders would code in assembler and actually care about optimizations, not for the future systems that are made to run increaingly bloated software. (Phones are also getting there now.. E.g. Why is dropbox app on my phone 70MB. On Amiga I was using the Raytracer software "Imagine" the file was 1MB and that was it.)
Motorola abandoned the development of the 68k architecture 20 years ago for a reason. Its a miracle that we get a product that might have arrived a couple of years later if Moto hade decided to stick with 68k but a competing CPU battling the latest x86 CPUs from Intel simply wont happen.



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[A500DaBest]

@A500DaBeast There have been Amigas running at 1GHz+ for a long time now, and the OS has been developed for it. The AmigaOne x5000 looks like a capable machine.
But if you're talking about a glorious future for the 68k architecture...

The Vampire is not a magical CPU. Being a reimplementation of the 68k architecture, it has some limits for how fast it can run etc. And even if you could bump it up to 1GHz, whats next? Doing 64-bit extensions to the 68k? And SIMD instructions? Its also "trapped" inside an FPGA, never being to able to break out of its limits.
Im not saying its theoretically impossible, but It makes very little sense in about every other respect ;-)
If the Vampire eventually delivers the equivalent of a 500MHz 060 it will still be stuck in the past. Compared to the latest CPUs, it would still only reach a couple % of the performance.
This is a CPU for old skool efficient times when coders would code in assembler and actually care about optimizations, not for the future systems that are made to run increaingly bloated software. (Phones are also getting there now.. E.g. Why is dropbox app on my phone 70MB. On Amiga I was using the Raytracer software "Imagine" the file was 1MB and that was it.)
Motorola abandoned the development of the 68k architecture 20 years ago for a reason. Its a miracle that we get a product that might have arrived a couple of years later if Moto hade decided to stick with 68k but a competing CPU battling the latest x86 CPUs from Intel simply wont happen.



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Honestly I disagree, it can compete against modern systems just you will not see it physically in terms of CPU number speed and 64 bit architecture. If we can actually do Vampire 500 Mhz 060 speed as you said then we have reached our goal. Our success will rely on super optimized coders on a 500 Mhz architecture that will make performance equivalent to that of modern system.

Look for example that guy who is making a quake engine for Atari. Have you seeing it? It is amazing coding effeciency in away you have not seeing before and it looks great, it looks like the system itself is a Pentium III with 700 Mhz when in fact it is a 68k 030 @ 30 Mhz system.

So take Vampire with 500 Mhz @ 060 and take these coders and combine them together and you will be able to get the feel of a dual process 3 Ghz Intel CPU. Which is why I am putting so much into having more RAM. RAM is the only obstacle that allows us to modernize our system back into action.

By the way, I don't mind if the new standalone Amiga is only 500 mhz CPU with the cool bells and whistles of 32 bit audio or 64 bit audio (you cannot tell the difference in the human ears anyways), with build in USB, Ethernet, WifFi, blah blah blah. Still the new standalone Amiga will break the limitation of the classic hardware anyways in terms of BUS, etc. Then combine that with great programmers and you will not see difference in performance between that and a mobile phone such as Android or iPhone.


However, putting that aside. The Amiga 68k hardware will not be able to compete with the NG Amiga system such as X1000 or modern x86 motherboard for those latest 3D heavy intensive games like battlefield, oblivion, etc nor will it ever be. What me personally I am looking for, in my Amiga classic system...is ability to browse the net using OWB and run 80% of the website online in my classic system, watch youtube, watch movies, and run DOSBox. If I can go do that...personally I have reached my goal in what I want to use my classic Amiga even though I could already do all of this in my x86 and better.

 

[eXeler0]

Honestly I disagree, it can compete against modern systems just you will not see it physically in terms of CPU number speed and 64 bit architecture. If we can actually do Vampire 500 Mhz 060 speed as you said then we have reached our goal. Our success will rely on super optimized coders on a 500 Mhz architecture that will make performance equivalent to that of modern system.

Well, 500Mhz probably isnt possible with the current FPGA, though it might be in future revisions.. Anyhoo, finding those coders that will code super efficient code is very hard because if they are good they have a job and as we all know, hobbyists tend to stretch their deadlines... ;-)

Look for example that guy who is making a quake engine for Atari. Have you seeing it? It is amazing coding effeciency in away you have not seeing before and it looks great, it looks like the system itself is a Pentium III with 700 Mhz when in fact it is a 68k 030 @ 30 Mhz system.

So take Vampire with 500 Mhz @ 060 and take these coders and combine them together and you will be able to get the feel of a dual process 3 Ghz Intel CPU. Which is why I am putting so much into having more RAM. RAM is the only obstacle that allows us to modernize our system back into action.

Ive seen it, and its definitely not running on the 030 alone.. he is heavily modifing the engine by exchanging floats for ints so that it can be run in parallel on the 56001 Motorola DSP. Its impressive, but such crazy guys dont come around often enough.. ;-)

By the way, I don't mind if the new standalone Amiga is only 500 mhz CPU with the cool bells and whistles of 32 bit audio or 64 bit audio (you cannot tell the difference in the human ears anyways), with build in USB, Ethernet, WifFi, blah blah blah. Still the new standalone Amiga will break the limitation of the classic hardware anyways in terms of BUS, etc. Then combine that with great programmers and you will not see difference in performance between that and a mobile phone such as Android or iPhone.

First of all, its probably going to be a good while before we see anything like a 500MHz 060... (if ever, depends how it goes..FPGA cost goes up for the pro stuff)
Secondly... Well, in theory, you could build a new system based on that and have great programmers produce fantastic stuff (relatively speaking)..
In the realm known as "reality" however, we can barely find 400 ppl to fund a kickstarter for new Amiga cases, and where are all these great programmers that will write this fantastic software. All new computers have to face the chicken and the egg problem at some point. (for programmers to earn money there has to be a large user base of paying customers, and the large user base is usually "created" with good software)

However, putting that aside. The Amiga 68k hardware will not be able to compete with the NG Amiga system such as X1000 or modern x86 motherboard for those latest 3D heavy intensive games like battlefield, oblivion, etc nor will it ever be. What me personally I am looking for, in my Amiga classic system...is ability to browse the net using OWB and run 80% of the website online in my classic system, watch youtube, watch movies, and run DOSBox. If I can go do that...personally I have reached my goal in what I want to use my classic Amiga even though I could already do all of this in my x86 and better.

Well, there you go. This "what defines the classic Amiga for you personally" -is a never ending discussion in these forums. Nostalgia is not about logic, ppl use it for different stuff and different reasons. Your last lines kind of nails the "what for?" issue when you talk about doing modern stuff on an old platform. Browsing, youtube etc will never be as good as on a modern PC, so why bother, right? Keep the retro system for doing its own thing, not trying to pretend its a modern computer that can compete on equal terms.

By now I hope we havent derailed the topic completely, it is still about what to do with the Vampire once its released. Anyhoo, I sugggest we take any further discussions about the future Amigas into a new thread, ok?

Cheers
/eX

 

[Sardine]

By now I hope we havent derailed the topic completely, it is still about what to do with the Vampire once its released. Anyhoo, I suggest we take any further discussions about the future Amigas into a new thread, ok?

Cheers
/eX

I was about to ask that very point,,, this is a pre-order thread,

 

[Jepplen]

Why on earth would you need 1 gig ram on an Amiga 600, that's just silly and expensive.
What i would like to see though, is 1080p from the HDMI like the HiDef NES uses in its FPGA.

That would be amazing!

 

[Polom]

+1 preorder.

Great project majsta !

 

[fery1200]

Interest one for me, money sended.

 

[xcorbel]

i need one

i need one

I come back to Amiga after a long time.

I need a Vampire 600 V2, please note i'm also interest for the same board for A1200 and A4000.

 

[ciVic]

Could you please confirm that you received my money? I cannot see my name in the list.

Edit: Confirmed, thx!

 

[trydowave]

just re-read the first page. I brought a USB blaster for the Vampire. Do I no longer need it?

 

[majsta]

Small mixture with the payments, who knows what happened.According to my data user ciVic send payment and I haven't put him on the list??? I m doing it now. He will be placed before some other users because in fact he send payment before them. So list is done according exact date of money sent, nothing else. Sorry once more.

 

[eXeler0]

@majsta, do you by any chance have any info to share about the redesign due to larger RAM?

 

[karloch]

What are the chances that the Apollo guys include an MMU implementation in the FPGA code? I'm a UNIX fan, even on the Amiga, and the minimum requirement for Linux/m68k and NetBSD/amiga to run is a MC68020 with MMU. Any chances?