Vampire 600 V2 - Amiga 600 FPGA accelerator Pre-order

[DyLucke]

So, what happens now?
Will i need to be waiting again?
I sent Kipper a message early this year, later in summer. Finally i was able to get other mail account related to him, and i asked again.
No response...

It would have been nice to have a "Hey, thank you for your interest, you're in the list already, be patient until i contact you".
Not even a single word from Kipper.

Now i see the price went up AGAIN.
Don't get me wrong, i do think 250 euro for for one unit, taking in consideration the former price is an increment of 100 euro... That's TOO MUCH.
I don't feel it's comprehensible talking just about manufacturing costs.

However, well... Accelerator prices are high, really high, and if we think about the A600, prices are even higher.
So, i guess it's still worth the money... Specially since they're the fastest around.

But one thing is clear, i thought about getting one unit for my A600, and then for my A500 and A1200 whenever they come to light...
Now i guess i should reconsider it. I guess i will go for the A600... But i'm not sure about the other models.

Specially since i have a MIST, and i'm pretty sure it can deliver a similar performance with the proper core.

I hope other teams that are manufacturing accelerators for the Amiga will be able to follow the FPGA trend and develop their own units.
That would at least, make prices a bit more friendly.

Most of us can't afford to buy 3 units at 300 euro each.
So, i think some kind of reasoning must be involved.
If you can sell 3 units at 150 euro each... Why conform selling just one unit at 300 euro?
I'm pretty sure some kind of offer can be done, and prices can be adjusted to a bit lower numbers.

 

[IanP]

It's easier to have a mist or even a FPGA arcade.

MiST maybe but FPGA Arcade? That was announced in March 2008. I don't recall when pre-orders began but it was a very long time ago.

Current pricing (from me) is 199Euro for the non-SVHS version, and 229Euro for the SVHS version. If you are within the EU, and not a business, you need to add 25% Swedish VAT. I have very limited supply capability and am only really sending to developers and people I promised to years ago. The aim is to move to a reseller model. There are two distributors signed up, Laurent who is handling France and assembling complete systems (I just supply the board) and Jim Drew in the US. (April 2014) source

On Jim's site you can use the mailto to get on the waiting list and quotes a price of $299 reduced from $399
Laurent offers a system on back order for €499 reduced from €549

- - - Updated - - -

So, what happens now?
Will i need to be waiting again?
I sent Kipper a message early this year, later in summer. Finally i was able to get other mail account related to him, and i asked again.
No response...

It would have been nice to have a "Hey, thank you for your interest, you're in the list already, be patient until i contact you".
Not even a single word from Kipper.

Did you check you are on the pre-order system link

 

[o0Nosferatu0o]

This is all a load of crap. 1000 people waiting for a Vampire , some people selling Vampire's with A600 for €800plus through Ebay. The other day i saw someone selling a Vampire 500 with an A500 also on Ebay, stating he was a developer/tester and had authorization to sell it. A few months ago, i sent an email to Kipper for 1 Vampire A600 and 1 Vampire A500, no reply from him. I thought ok, he has a life and there are other people first , so let's wait. Still no reply from him and the prices are up again.
When the time comes to buy/pay, let's see what prices we are really going to pay. €650 for a Vampire 600 , €750 for a Vampire 500, €1500 for Vampire A4000/3000 whatever. Do not forget those Black Edition Vampires , that will also clean your house and pay for all those monthly expenses - for a PREMIUM you have the BEST.

 

[eStorm]

90€ -> 250€
250€ + p&p EU + customs duty + VAT ~ 350€
350€ for hardware, that possibly can be confiscated and destroyed (at least at german customs) because of not being authorized/certificated in the EU? No warrenty?
Yeah...more feautres, special prices, higher FPGA-prices... that are all things I may understand. But a price rise of nearly 200%...?
I really hope, your future project management (V500, V1200, other V's) will be more professional.

 

[CrazyBob]

Keep in mind: when the Vampire 600 v2 pre-order started it was a different board compared to what it is today.
It looked more like a slightly updated Vampire 600 v1.
Smaller PCB, bigger FPGA.

In the meantime it got an even bigger FPGA in BGA package. (which is incredibly difficult to solder by hand)
More memory was installed because of new features (i.e. RTG) and Apollo core was being modelled and fitted.

The Apollo core, RTG (even AGA), SD are still under development.
The most important component the FPGA has doubled in price, maybe even trippled compared to the first non-BGA FPGA at the time the base price was set to 90 euro.

Having said that, it makes completely sense that the price is being increased to a healtier level now the project is maturing.
If the initial price was set at 200 euro we wouldn't have had these discussions.

One other thing not to forget: everybody involved in making the Vampire series a succes can say: hey we did it, it was great, we proved it could work and walk away from the project. They are not obliged to give support for the next 10 years.
It was a personal project we all just liked very much.

 

[TheNey]

I'm just looking forward to the V500/V1200 becoming available, and selling the cards at a profit instead of a loss gives me confidence that that will happen.

It's a wise decision.

Keep up the good work Apollo team!

 

[bebek]

Guys, this looks like price discussions. On top, this is Majsta's sell thread and the last thing I have heard was that he is not changing the price in it. EAB membership is free and kipper is over there so maybe that would be the best place to go and moan about it.

 

[Weehawk]

Boah, tons of judgements and rumors hitting the fan with vastest assumptions. Oh my.
Do some read what they write demanding cheap, considering there are real people behind the project with feelings?
Think you're soldering boards and boards by hand to keep it cheap for the community and then see someone making a profit of it on Ebay? And you wonder?
And blame then the project folks to give it to professional manufactures needing a raise in price? Then again one'd also complain if the handcrafted card doesn't live up to your expectations.

Klipper2k, Majsta, thanks for the project and keeping up with all of that. The Vampire rocks and hit the accelerator scene like lightning. What a storm.

 

[NoPyroNoParty]

Didn't the authors just prove that it was best to pay over the odds on Ebay to get one?
Anyway good to see that the demand has caused them to do the needed actions to upscale production and in as the original backers who have had to wait for ages get their cards at half the price so it's kind of a reward.

 

[majsta]

I have read some comments here. First people like I said 100 times before this is pre-orders thread started by me and has nothing to do with other lists or other people involved and has nothing to do with price increase.
I ll try to explain but please again this is not place to discuss this.
Let's be clear, I have pick and place machine but there are certain things that needs to be soldered by hand. This specific SDRAM also needs to be soldered by hand if you solder it another way it will die then PLCC socket who also needs sanding and butchering, other headers and connectors.
Then there is testing of the card who can take one day per card. But anyway as a person who worked on PCB assembly line I can say that most of the people have no clue how those stuff goes and if this was possible it would be done. First, I m not the person who should build those cards at all, instead I m the person who should design them and solder only few for beta testers or to cover pre-orders. Once I got scared of those pre orders I have stopped them because even this is too many for me to handle. No one could predict that demand will be so high. There is also list collected over my site so in total I have no idea how many cards needs to be made. Regarding manufacturing in Asia, yesterday I had discussion with the man who should build us card edge connectors, we need to give guarantee that we will buy 10 000pcs that's the first obstacle so in such small volumes we have massive price increase. And to be honest and talk numbers I have done some Vampire cards assembled in China, without mentioned connectors and FPGA,Sdram, price was 69USD per one card. Adding to that cost of FPGA etc... You can easily calculate for yourself. First initial price was 90Eur because I have about 80-90 10K LE FPGA who are paid about 30Eur each at the time. Then we noticed that this will be too small to use and went to 120Eur. I never asked from the people who paid 90Eur to give more money but some of them did that anyway on they own. Price of FPGA we use back then was about 60Eur so we could cover it. I have tried also to order cheap FPGA from eBay and failed. They were listed for 20Eur or so and at the end you realize that you pay them 150Eur because most of them you get in the package don't work or they are fake or whatever.

Now real deal.
No one was serious enough to resell the cards. I have asked every amiga shop to sell them to manufacture them or to work together with us in next projects and maybe sell V1200. I have only asked from them to sell the cards and to give me their connectors. They didn't even bother to reply or when I was sending them number of mails they just reply once to me with something like we will discuss this bla bla and never reply back. However when there were offers from someone to manufacture cards no one was serious enough. Only to the point that I should give him design files for free. I won't give anyone design files without signing contract. When I said that everyone gives up. Why's that. Apollo-core worth millions and it is not my core it is someones else life's work. If that person decide to do something with it, sell it, first question from the buyer will be who have any kind designing files that are connected to this core. I don't want to create problems there. That story goes so far that I have received mails from the people saying that they will use x-rays to copy boards and produce it. Everyone just wanted design files for free. This time like I said I can't opensource it or give Gerber files like I did with Vampire V1 because Apollo-core isn't opensourced. Vampire V1 was opensourced and who was interested to continue work on it, only one man from Poland.

When I see that some people are saying that we don't have any sense how to do business. Let me just say that this is not business we are doing here. I don't own company so for me could be huge problem to order 100 cards assembled somewhere. I won't turn this into business or make company from it.

Regarding kipper2k, don't know what to say but I think that all of this isn't fair for him. Would you accept to solder 800 cards, pack them and send, do you think that you would do it better? If that's the case search for me on the chat, there will be other Vampire models so we can talk about that. When you see that you are doing worse than him you will understand why is situation like this. I receive over 30 mails or PM per day, just try to answer that in front of doing other things.

People have no clue what is going on behind scenes with us and other shops, manufacturers, vultures. Blackmails are constant thing, phone calls... Everyone sees huge money in this but no one want's to do cooperation properly.

 

[Tuxbar81]

You have an A600 and you want to give him more power?
Ok, what we had until now for adding more power, more memory, and a better video output to a poor Amiga 600?

- an ACA620: 100€
- an A604n: 35€
- an Indivision ECS: 100€

Total price: 235€! 235€ for that...

And for our Amiga 500? What we had for our A500?

- an ACA1233-40 (68030 at 40Mhz without FPU + 128Mb): 240€
- an ACA500: 90€
- an Indivision ECS: 100€

Total price: 430€! Yes 430€...

And these prices don't include the shipping cost.

And now look at the specifications of the Vampire2. Look at the possibilities that this all in one board will bring to you. You don't see some little differences?

You're not glad, I think that everybody can understand. Okay. But nobody forces you to buy a Vampire. You are onto the waiting list, but you have paid nothing, no?
So cancel your interest and put more than 430€ for you A500 and more than 235€ for a poor 68020 for your A600 into one of the configurations described above and be happy with the new "little big" power that your Amiga will be able to deliver.

Voilà voilà...


Me, I'm waiting for the Vampire 500... and perhaps I hope for a Vampire 4000...
Many thanks to Appollo Core and especially to Majsta to make it possible!

 

[1NOM155]

Majsta that's funny. Some people offer you help and you decline. Including me.
But lets clarify, you never send me a PM about the details or sign any contract of confidential stuff... If you had, or wanted you show that interest when I suggest bring the production to an European country, I would do it without any objection. I never stole, or committed any theft!!!

About x-ray your card, etc, anyone can do that, but you can't disassembly properly your / Apollo code by only using the core file... so what thoses ..... can do with an image of your card (traces, vias, layers, etc)?

Beside I never said "will be me, responsible to hand made the cards". My only idea was to provide you a certificated company to mass produce it, the only difference was, if you ask them directly they show / present the regular price to normal customers, with me, since I know the owner, we made a huge discount...

And could continue, but I prefer not to. This situation stinks and badly.

Do the way you want what you think is better for you, in the end you and the special Kipper can't keep what both say. Sorry if you don't like to ear the true (can check here - http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=2365 since Apollo deleted the thread as usual for their convenience can see what Kipper said here .

Also about the website to check if you are select to wait for a vampire, in my case doesn't work / my email was unregistered, mean like Kipper said on Apollo forum, we don't have list, so that means he doesn't follow the emails by time of arrival... shame, really shame attitude.

Just hope you and the rest learn for this stupid and chilliest mistakes in the future.

About your project, was a great achievement for the Amiga community, but again like in other projects, start well and after that, is going to the same wrong path. That's why Jens (Individual Computers) say and we is right, "you have a good project, but you don't know make or run a business". I don't want to agree with him, but he is right.

Like I said on my previous post, and you / kipper haven't answer, what will happen to the previous queue? means they are forgotten and need to make a new request and pay the "new" prices?
Plus why suddenly change the Vampire into 2 versions, when in the last month all Apollo team mates were happy by adding new features and give tons of speed and now change?
Also that new prices include European law of warranty (2 years)?

I like to have my doubts / questions answered, when you and Kipper have a change, please. I think we deserve that, is the minimum both can do.

 

[kipper2k]

.

It appears i constantly repeat myself, i cannot juggle my time enough to get everything done and satisfy everyone, no matter what i do there will always be complaints. If you sent me an email after preorders were opened then you are on the new list, the new list at http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/orders/index.php is in the same order that orders have been received,. no one has lost their place and after months of trying to keep up with demands it could not be done. Most people realise this, some not, juggling time is hard to do, i am not chained to my workshop hence the need to get these produced commercially now.I sound like a broken record repeating this all the time and tbh it is getting very tiring, when it stops being fun, it stops!

 

[majsta]

About your project, was a great achievement for the Amiga community, but again like in other projects, start well and after that, is going to the same wrong path. That's why Jens (Individual Computers) say and we is right, "you have a good project, but you don't know make or run a business". I don't want to agree with him, but he is right.

Let me repeat myself I m not running business with this and I won't. Regarding European manufacturing. Don't you think that I could find company in my city to do all of this. There is company about 500m from my house who do all kinds of testings, manufacturing making even complex electronics for medical purposes like heart pacemakers. I have stated on my site 3 years ago within article if you are not happy with the way I m handling things go and buy commercial product from professional manufacturer or seller. I m just person who is holding soldering station in my room and nothing else and that's not gonna change. How would you react when someone you don't know send you PM about sending him Gerber files so he can manufacture cards. When I m doing things I m doing things differently. Last week I travel 600km to ensure contact to the man who will build me card edge connectors. I didn't send PM or mail instead I went there. With mass production lot of money is involved. My plan was simple, 10 ppl send me money I use that money for parts and solder them cards and send it. How to put it, simply I don't care, want, need about receiving 100 000Eur and earning that much or more and creating from this serious business. I live humble life spending no more than 5-10Eur per day for living. For such huge volumes I don't want to end up with taxman problems. If this project is so great why no one took plane and visited me to talk. Instead I only got blackmails, threats or all kind of pressure from those serious Amiga manufacturers to either stop development or to let them handle things. Right now I m in the situation to stop all of this because some nasty comments here and on another forums and then everyone should be happy with the way it was before.

And again, I won't reply here anymore about this topic. Hey, everyone had a fair chance to be in this list who will be cleared by the end of the month.

 

[Kresko]

@kipper
I sent you mail on August 15th,to order vampire 2 for A600,and memory expansion card also.You didn't answer it,at all.
After month,you made finally special site for making interest and where we can see our no. of order.I received no. 614(or 641,don't remember).
After your post today,I checked,and site said: there is no expressed interest for that mail!!!
WTF???
Am I bottom of the list?
My mail: kresko.gym@gmail.com

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

 

[kipper2k]

@kipper
I sent you mail on August 15th,to order vampire 2 for A600,and memory expansion card also.You didn't answer it,at all.
After month,you made finally special site for making interest and where we can see our no. of order.I received no. 614(or 641,don't remember).
After your post today,I checked,and site said: there is no expressed interest for that mail!!!
WTF???
Am I bottom of the list?
My mail: kresko.gym@gmail.com

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

your email address/order appears on the list ?

i just checked

 

[1NOM155]

.

It appears i constantly repeat myself, i cannot juggle my time enough to get everything done and satisfy everyone, no matter what i do there will always be complaints. If you sent me an email after preorders were opened then you are on the new list, the new list at http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/orders/index.php is in the same order that orders have been received,. no one has lost their place and after months of trying to keep up with demands it could not be done. Most people realise this, some not, juggling time is hard to do, i am not chained to my workshop hence the need to get these produced commercially now.I sound like a broken record repeating this all the time and tbh it is getting very tiring, when it stops being fun, it stops!

Kipper like I said before, my concern is about being in the last position of the queue again, and pay more for something in the past cost 150€, and now you ask 250€ + shipping + customs house fees, and no insurance / warranty.

Also don't compare with old items / accelerators, because that is something people risk when they buy those used items, or compare with other competitors like ACA's accelerators cards makers or others, because in that case you have other kind or support / warranty rules to protect the buyer.

About your project, was a great achievement for the Amiga community, but again like in other projects, start well and after that, is going to the same wrong path. That's why Jens (Individual Computers) say and we is right, "you have a good project, but you don't know make or run a business". I don't want to agree with him, but he is right.

Let me repeat myself I m not running business with this and I won't. Regarding European manufacturing. Don't you think that I could find company in my city to do all of this. There is company about 500m from my house who do all kinds of testings, manufacturing making even complex electronics for medical purposes like heart pacemakers. I have stated on my site 3 years ago within article if you are not happy with the way I m handling things go and buy commercial product from professional manufacturer or seller. I m just person who is holding soldering station in my room and nothing else and that's not gonna change. How would you react when someone you don't know send you PM about sending him Gerber files so he can manufacture cards. When I m doing things I m doing things differently. Last week I travel 600km to ensure contact to the man who will build me card edge connectors. I didn't send PM or mail instead I went there. With mass production lot of money is involved. My plan was simple, 10 ppl send me money I use that money for parts and solder them cards and send it. How to put it, simply I don't care, want, need about receiving 100 000Eur and earning that much or more and creating from this serious business. I live humble life spending no more than 5-10Eur per day for living. For such huge volumes I don't want to end up with taxman problems. If this project is so great why no one took plane and visited me to talk. Instead I only got blackmails, threats or all kind of pressure from those serious Amiga manufacturers to either stop development or to let them handle things. Right now I m in the situation to stop all of this because some nasty comments here and on another forums and then everyone should be happy with the way it was before.

And again, I won't reply here anymore about this topic. Hey, everyone had a fair chance to be in this list who will be cleared by the end of the month.

I understand your point of view, as a hobbyist hardware maker, but again, you never thought this would be bigger. But why you didn't accept our help, and just Kipper instead / only? Didn't you risk Kipper could steel your work?

Also Majsta, their is another PCB makers in Europe, not only your PCB maker close to your house.
About visiting you to discuss other ways to mass produce, you were never be receptive to accept help, so do you think I'll spend money to make a trip and risk to hit my face on a closed door?
Don't see my "vent" / frustration as blacked mail or trying to ruing your project, because I don't want to make you feel bad, only take conscious the way things could be done in a different and better way.

I don't want others not being capable of getting your card at the price you want. That is up to them, no me jugging their finances.

About my questions I understand both don't want to answer it, it's fine, is your right. That only motivate me more to look to other alternatives, in case of not seeing a good way to solve the mess was created by that "way" of dealing with this.

Peace.

 

[Kresko]

@kipper
I sent you mail on August 15th,to order vampire 2 for A600,and memory expansion card also.You didn't answer it,at all.
After month,you made finally special site for making interest and where we can see our no. of order.I received no. 614(or 641,don't remember).
After your post today,I checked,and site said: there is no expressed interest for that mail!!!
WTF???
Am I bottom of the list?
My mail: kresko.gym@gmail.com

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

your email address/order appears on the list ?

i just checked

I checked with link you posted today,there is no order for my mail.
I am on the phone right now,I'll check on PC when I get home,maybe it will be difference...

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

 

[kipper2k]

i'll send you a screenshot

 

[timmie]

Oh please people, just stop all the bickering and simply applaud this awesome development so the guys can concentrate on what matters, i.e. further developing the Vampires and get the professional manufacture lines up to speed

Please let this initiative be revolutionary in another way as well for the Amiga community and for once not cause another division into many camps...